Phytoestrogens

[Dtlv74]

For discussion - how dangerous are they?

There is much written about them being a definite anti-nutrient and one to avoid, but when you look at the data it actually seems a little contradictory and a little less clear cut. What are peoples views?

Wiki says the following (link to full article below):

Quote

Health risks and benefits (of phyto-estrogens)

In human beings, phytoestrogens are readily absorbed, circulate in plasma and are excreted in the urine. Metabolic influence is different from that of grazing animals due to the differences between ruminant versus monogastric digestive systems.
Because phytoestrogens may mimic endogenous estrogens, there has been some unsubstantiated speculation that this similarity and the consumption of high quantities of phytoestrogens may result in hormonal imbalances and effects associated with excess estrogen levels. However the scientific studies which have been done do not support these concerns. The main reason why the dietary consumption of phytoestrogens is not considered a risk factor is that phytoestrogens do not appear to bioaccumulate.

Phytoestrogen in men

The covert and extensive use of phytoestrogens (as soy protein) in fast food meals and other processed foods as a low-cost substitute for meat products, may however, lead to the unaware daily consumption of extreme quantities of isoflavonoids by fast food eaters. A research team at the Queens University in Belfast, in a review article, claims that such excess may lead to a slight decrease in male fertility, including a decrease in reproductive capability if isoflavones are taken in excess during childhood.
In theory, exposure to high levels of phytoestrogens in men could alter their hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, however, studies have shown that such a hormonal effect is minor. Isoflavones supplementation has no effect in sperm concentration, count or motility and show no changes in testicular or ejaculate volume.Researchers are studying if these mild effects may explain the protective effects of phytoestrogens in prostate cancer prevention.

Phytoestrogen in women

There are conflicting studies, and it is unclear if phytoestrogens have any effect on the cause or prevention of cancer in women.While some epidemiological studies showed a protective effect against breast cancer, in vitro studies concluded that women with current or past breast cancer should be aware of the risks of potential tumor growth when taking soy products, although the potential for tumor growth was found related only with small concentration of genistein and protective effects were found with larger concentrations of the same phytoestrogen. A 2006 review article stated the opinion that not enough information is available, and that even if isoflavones have mechanisms to inhibit tumor growth, in vitro results justify the need to evaluate, at cellular level, the impact of isoflavones on breast tissue in women at high risk for breast cancer. The generally accepted position on this topic is that phytoestrogens may be beneficial for healthy women, however, women with cancer history should be aware of existing risks and avoid consumption until more information is available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytoestrogens

The government guidlines on phytoestrogens (lots of info on phytoestrogens here):

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/phytoreport0503

[Ripped Barbarian]

Weaker phytoestrogens (certain fruits, herbs) block receptors from stronger endogenous estrogen (metabolised from test in males) thus reducing potential estrogenic effects and allowing test to stay high.

stronger and large amounts of phytoestrogens (soy, liquorice etc) saturate the body and due to stronger effect cause strong estrogenic activity (fat deposition is the most noticeable)

I did come up with a rough list of varying phytoestrogen content and potency but i can't find it at mo and i'm prob gonna get some sleep but i'll prob be on tommorow and add some info on this.

It's important to add however that it's not a case of estrogen is bad, testosterone is good in men, you need both and too much or too little of either (even testosterone!) is a bad thing.
A little knowledge is dangerous they say, some people freak out when you mention phytoestrogens in foods, oh noes i can't eat papaya i might accidently eat a seed and reduce my test by 1ng/dl !!!!!

Often phytoestrogens can have a stabilising effect on endocrine system (one of the reasons for fruit and veg being healthy) without them the body can 'free run' on the edocrine system and go a little crazy, this depends on genetics and what else you are doing however but for general health most people will benefit from some phytoestrogen consumption (If you eat your greens, fruits and veg and the like you'll be sorted) people who base their diet on beans, seeds, grains, soy or have powerful estrogenic herbs like liquorice or for some reason eat crushed date pits will be doing themselves harm, reducing test and giving themselves breasts (possible!).

If you know what you are doing certain herbs and extracts can be used to lower estrogenic activity and boost testosterone (this is a bodybuilding site afterall)
-Passion flower has chrysin which is such an estrogen blocker and is fantastic, i'm chewing on it now.
-Grape seed extract, polyphenols (antioxidants) actually have a estrogen receptor modulating effect as well as being fantastically healthy, GSE (available from myprotein) will help to up test and generally control the endocrine system.
-Brocolli, not exactly a herb/supplement but the indole-3-carbinol is always worth a mention, iirc has direct effects on estrogen metabolism rather than acting as a blocker

Ok, this subject gives me a boner so i may as well add some food list.

Foods that tend to promote estrogen, estrogenic activity and in my opinion keep to minimum, this dosn't mean you should freak out and throw it in the bin just don't make it a daily staple or anything.
-Seeds (especially aniseed, but flax/sesame too)
-Sage
-Legumes (soy, peanuts, beans)
-Grains
-Fennel and liquorice (it's foods with the aniseedy taste that will f*** you up, sambuca is not the drink of choice it seems)
-Papaya seeds, watch them!
-Date pits, not that you'd eat these anyway
-Pomegranates ( i like these so much i eat a few anyway!, they are worth the bitchtits)
-Hops (beer and lager!!)

+ many others

Foods that seem to have a pro testosterone (estrogen reducing/modulating as it antagonist to test and also less metabolisation of test means more test)

-Berries
-Citrus fruits
-Brocolli (and all cruciferous veg but brocolli is really nice)
-Pineapple, figs and many other fruits.
-Squashes and melons (i could really do with a watermelon right now)
-Onions
-Passion flower herb

+ many others

Now that is trying to polarise an already very rough 'spectrum' and some things are probably downright wrong as it's hard to get the right end of the stick but as a general 'move your diet in this direction' it should help at the very least.

It's good to look at 'traditional views' and personal experience with the various foods for it's supposed effect on endocrine (i.e if a food item gives you a massive boner, rips you up and makes you feel like god it's prob doing something good for your test (or has powerful alkaloids and you've accidently been eating coca leaves or something) if it makes you feel depressed, low libido, errectile dysfunction it's prob reducing your test right down, try a few days dosing up on liquorice root and you'll see what i mean (actually don't do it)
Looking at resources for herbalism you can see many herbs that supposedly increase test, estrogen, have a modulating effect or this that and the other, obviously some are going to be complete nonsensemonkiness but there are a lot that are from hundreds of years of trial and error and often modern medical science is discovering just how much truth there are in 'wives tales' and 'folk rememdy', it's a fascinating subject.

It's funny, after being obsessed with testosterone and phytoestrogens for years etc you actually develop a sixth sense for how 'phytoestrogenic' a food tastes, it's hard to explain really but i have associated the tastes of certain compounds within foods as estrogenic, weakly estrogenic, or generally bad in other aspects, as animals we have the ability to 'know what we need' obviously modern lifestyle completely dulls this but i like to think i am more sensetive than most people, one thing i have noted with my tastes is that i would predict that fenugreek was high in active phytoestrogens, it's got that real 'edge' that you get with uncooked legumes and stuff which i know is a bad thing for my body, yet many people try and use it for test boosting, it dosn't have this effect on me (it does however have the curry/maple syrup piss and insulin sensitvity increasing effects) i'm pretty sure fenugreek isn't what people think it is.

Phytoestrogens have (partially at least) evolved as an antiherbivorous defense mechanism, reducing fertility of those who graze/eat what they shouldn't....reduced fertility means less baby moss munchers and less moss munchers means increase in plants and spread of genes (basic selection, you can see how these compounds have arisen)
Generally it's things that really do not 'want' to be eaten that are likely high in phytoestrogen, seeds, legumes and a lot of raw plants (raw legumes and stuff are actually pretty bad containing many antinutrients, you'd be mad to eat certain raw beans) whereas something like a fruit 'wants' to be eaten (note however the seeds within do not 'want' to be eaten, a lot of fruit eating animals don't crunch the seeds up like us and just eat the soft flesh and the seeds pass through) this ties in with my "good veg bad veg" thread and similar matters nu and others have posted.
I've always thought such things as fruits that want to be eaten would greatly benefit from having positive effects on the animal who consumes and distributes the seeds correctly, it's well known fruits contain lots of essential vitamins and nutrients that animals have co evolved to use, isn't nature fantastic! but i'm going off on a massive tangent now so i'll finally get some sleep at half two.

[Dtlv74]

Superb informative post RC... I must admit I had a feeling I'd get some info from you on this as it's definitely an area of knowledge on this forum that you contribute immensely to.

What are your thoughts on the phytoestrogens in bee pollen and bee propolis (they contain chrysin and some lignans)? I ask because I'm looking at making up my own daily greens drink and some 'natural' supplements (will start a thread), and would really like to include this because of it's many other benefits. Will definitely add some passion flower extract for the chrysin anyway.

[Ripped Barbarian]

Quote

Superb informative post RC... I must admit I had a feeling I'd get some info from you on this as it's definitely an area of knowledge on this forum that you contribute immensely to.

What are your thoughts on the phytoestrogens in bee pollen and bee propolis (they contain chrysin and some lignans)? I ask because I'm looking at making up my own daily greens drink and some 'natural' supplements (will start a thread), and would really like to include this because of it's many other benefits. Will definitely add some passion flower extract for the chrysin anyway.

Bee pollen does contain chrysin, a small percentage, whilst it is active it's not a very efficient way of obtaining it, passion flower herb is much better way.
For the money i don't think the pollen/propolis is very effective at all, use it for hayfever (if it's from a local source) but it's not something i think is worth the money

As whole passion flower is as cheap as £2/100g you should use this for effect, extract is obviously strong but probably works out less cost effective and there are other benefits in the herb, antioxidants and no doubt other little researched compounds.

A natural greens drink you say? sounds very interesting.
What form would this take, a juiced beverage, tea or tincture?

I personally do a lot of chewing of my herbs and stuff, i feel that i get the best value for money and added fibre doing it this way, with a tea compounds leach out but you prob chuck a good 60% away after you've strained it.

[Ripped Barbarian]

Something interesting i have noted, i have avoided celery a lot because it was high in more active phytoestrogens and non organic stuff is covered in pesticides, however i bought some organic celery yesterday as i havn't seen it before and not had celery for a long time.

I don'y think i got any breast growth but instead it made me very randy, full of energy and generally feeling like i had heightened testosterone (you should have seen the dream i had last night!)

Very similar in effect to sesame seed paste (tahini) i had recently which is also meant to be high in potent phytoestrogens.

It seems to be most pronounced upon not eating it for a while and having a smallish amount, if i eat it in mass the effect seems to drop right off.

Mabye it is having some sort of 'rebound' effect on testosterone, through impulse of blood estrogens which rapidly get metabolised out of the blood stream?

[cheef]

Quote

Weaker phytoestrogens (certain fruits, herbs) block receptors from stronger endogenous estrogen (metabolised from test in males) thus reducing potential estrogenic effects and allowing test to stay high.

stronger and large amounts of phytoestrogens (soy, liquorice etc) saturate the body and due to stronger effect cause strong estrogenic activity (fat deposition is the most noticeable)

I did come up with a rough list of varying phytoestrogen content and potency but i can't find it at mo and i'm prob gonna get some sleep but i'll prob be on tommorow and add some info on this.

It's important to add however that it's not a case of estrogen is bad, testosterone is good in men, you need both and too much or too little of either (even testosterone!) is a bad thing.
A little knowledge is dangerous they say, some people freak out when you mention phytoestrogens in foods, oh noes i can't eat papaya i might accidently eat a seed and reduce my test by 1ng/dl !!!!!

Often phytoestrogens can have a stabilising effect on endocrine system (one of the reasons for fruit and veg being healthy) without them the body can 'free run' on the edocrine system and go a little crazy, this depends on genetics and what else you are doing however but for general health most people will benefit from some phytoestrogen consumption (If you eat your greens, fruits and veg and the like you'll be sorted) people who base their diet on beans, seeds, grains, soy or have powerful estrogenic herbs like liquorice or for some reason eat crushed date pits will be doing themselves harm, reducing test and giving themselves breasts (possible!).

If you know what you are doing certain herbs and extracts can be used to lower estrogenic activity and boost testosterone (this is a bodybuilding site afterall)
-Passion flower has chrysin which is such an estrogen blocker and is fantastic, i'm chewing on it now.
-Grape seed extract, polyphenols (antioxidants) actually have a estrogen receptor modulating effect as well as being fantastically healthy, GSE (available from myprotein) will help to up test and generally control the endocrine system.
-Brocolli, not exactly a herb/supplement but the indole-3-carbinol is always worth a mention, iirc has direct effects on estrogen metabolism rather than acting as a blocker

Ok, this subject gives me a boner so i may as well add some food list.

Foods that tend to promote estrogen, estrogenic activity and in my opinion keep to minimum, this dosn't mean you should freak out and throw it in the bin just don't make it a daily staple or anything.
-Seeds (especially aniseed, but flax/sesame too)
-Sage
-Legumes (soy, peanuts, beans)
-Grains
-Fennel and liquorice (it's foods with the aniseedy taste that will f*** you up, sambuca is not the drink of choice it seems)
-Papaya seeds, watch them!
-Date pits, not that you'd eat these anyway
-Pomegranates ( i like these so much i eat a few anyway!, they are worth the bitchtits)
-Hops (beer and lager!!)

+ many others

Foods that seem to have a pro testosterone (estrogen reducing/modulating as it antagonist to test and also less metabolisation of test means more test)

-Berries
-Citrus fruits
-Brocolli (and all cruciferous veg but brocolli is really nice)
-Pineapple, figs and many other fruits.
-Squashes and melons (i could really do with a watermelon right now)
-Onions
-Passion flower herb

+ many others

Now that is trying to polarise an already very rough 'spectrum' and some things are probably downright wrong as it's hard to get the right end of the stick but as a general 'move your diet in this direction' it should help at the very least.

It's good to look at 'traditional views' and personal experience with the various foods for it's supposed effect on endocrine (i.e if a food item gives you a massive boner, rips you up and makes you feel like god it's prob doing something good for your test (or has powerful alkaloids and you've accidently been eating coca leaves or something) if it makes you feel depressed, low libido, errectile dysfunction it's prob reducing your test right down, try a few days dosing up on liquorice root and you'll see what i mean (actually don't do it)
Looking at resources for herbalism you can see many herbs that supposedly increase test, estrogen, have a modulating effect or this that and the other, obviously some are going to be complete nonsensemonkiness but there are a lot that are from hundreds of years of trial and error and often modern medical science is discovering just how much truth there are in 'wives tales' and 'folk rememdy', it's a fascinating subject.

It's funny, after being obsessed with testosterone and phytoestrogens for years etc you actually develop a sixth sense for how 'phytoestrogenic' a food tastes, it's hard to explain really but i have associated the tastes of certain compounds within foods as estrogenic, weakly estrogenic, or generally bad in other aspects, as animals we have the ability to 'know what we need' obviously modern lifestyle completely dulls this but i like to think i am more sensetive than most people, one thing i have noted with my tastes is that i would predict that fenugreek was high in active phytoestrogens, it's got that real 'edge' that you get with uncooked legumes and stuff which i know is a bad thing for my body, yet many people try and use it for test boosting, it dosn't have this effect on me (it does however have the curry/maple syrup piss and insulin sensitvity increasing effects) i'm pretty sure fenugreek isn't what people think it is.

Phytoestrogens have (partially at least) evolved as an antiherbivorous defense mechanism, reducing fertility of those who graze/eat what they shouldn't....reduced fertility means less baby moss munchers and less moss munchers means increase in plants and spread of genes (basic selection, you can see how these compounds have arisen)
Generally it's things that really do not 'want' to be eaten that are likely high in phytoestrogen, seeds, legumes and a lot of raw plants (raw legumes and stuff are actually pretty bad containing many antinutrients, you'd be mad to eat certain raw beans) whereas something like a fruit 'wants' to be eaten (note however the seeds within do not 'want' to be eaten, a lot of fruit eating animals don't crunch the seeds up like us and just eat the soft flesh and the seeds pass through) this ties in with my "good veg bad veg" thread and similar matters nu and others have posted.
I've always thought such things as fruits that want to be eaten would greatly benefit from having positive effects on the animal who consumes and distributes the seeds correctly, it's well known fruits contain lots of essential vitamins and nutrients that animals have co evolved to use, isn't nature fantastic! but i'm going off on a massive tangent now so i'll finally get some sleep at half two.

thamks for that rc repped

[Scratchy]

Good post RC - it's an interesting theory about the plants 'wanting' to be eaten or not for survival reasons - it seems to have a lot of basis to it. I believed the case was different for hops/barley and these actually have testosterone promoting effects.