Against Glycogen Repletion...

[MartinM]

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i'm close on 33 and allowed to swear

Not on this board Posts edited.

Jules - I think high fat, low carb sucks and normally you are a good poster... so I'm with you so don't feel bullied

[NU_nutrition_TS]

No, sorry! But if you go to his website [as linked at the end of the T-Nation interview] there may be some details there. Apparently, he is initially releasing chapters [as they are finalized] as pdf's for download at $10 a pop! But to be honest, you get just as good an idea of his theories by reading his blog for free!

[sendos]

ah i see, i saw the first chapter for $10 but tbh if the books going to be 5quid a chapter then i'll give it amiss. Cheers for theheads up about the blog.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

I think, when the whole book is completed, it will be cheaper than the equivalent of £5 a chapter, but it is only an expanded version of his 26 page essay on the subject. Download that as a pdf for free! If you type 'evolutionary fitness art de vaney' into Google and you should come up with a link that will allow you to download it. It talks a lot about 'power law distribution' curves, so you may want to do some ancilliary googling on 'power law'!

[kp1512]

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Funny you should ask KP...I did my fasting glucose just this morning when I woke up and it was 4.8. I looked back at some previous ones and they were between 4.6 and 4.8. When I had my blood test done via my GP it was 5.3 after a 12hr+ fast!

Taking all of this data and averaging it out I get this summary:
Fasting: 5.1, Before Meals: 5.2, 1h After Meals: 5.7, 2+h After Meals: 5.1, - over the last year - from 9 Jun, 2006 to 9 Jun, 2007

I think one possible explanation is that when you are not reliant on a high carb diet [long term], you revert back to a system that is ours by evolutionary design. We become more insulin sensitive because our bloodstreams are not constantly flooded with it. When we fast [or overnight] and our blood glucose levels dip below around 4.5, glucagon is released [among other hormones] and the glycogen stored in our liver is reconverted into glucose and is released into our blood stream. As our blood glucose levels rise to 5.5 and beyond [slowly!] a little insulin is released which signals the liver to stop reconverting glycogen and our blood glucose levels out to around 5.5.

If your 4 days without carbs was on the tail of a relatively high carb dietary phase it could be that your fasting blood glucose overshot slightly because you are still [slightly] insulin resistant?

Well that is my concern! I am Insulin Resistant and have been for over 10 odd years...which is why I do keep tabs on my levels.

Just did an averge of last 45 days, or waking, and I get 5.6. Which isnt too bad. Lowest I get, is after morning cardio...which drops to around 4.9 which is udnerstandable. Highest is following WMS, 30 Gms Whey Conc, Leucine and Taurine which spikes me to 11.5 !

[MartinM]

Gene expression after exercise is a relatively new area and certainly is being sutided a LOT more in relation to endurance type activities. By not consuming CHOs straight after the exercise it seems to increase the expression of genes that code for various cfactors involved in fat oxidation including the obvious oxidative enzymes.

However, in the short term and indeed when looked at in relation to resistance training whether in the LT or ST I cannot see this conveying ANY benefit especially in this weird 2 training sessions per day situation but I understand no-one on the forum is backing that statement.

Those training bodyparts once a week on say a push pull legs with a very inactive lifestyle may get on ok with this (high fat, lower carbs) as long the correct supplement regime is used.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Well that is my concern! I am Insulin Resistant and have been for over 10 odd years...which is why I do keep tabs on my levels.

Just did an averge of last 45 days, or waking, and I get 5.6. Which isnt too bad. Lowest I get, is after morning cardio...which drops to around 4.9 which is udnerstandable. Highest is following WMS, 30 Gms Whey Conc, Leucine and Taurine which spikes me to 11.5 !

Sorry to hear that KP. You say you have been insulin resistant for the last 10 years. May I ask, how long have you been training/dieting ala bodybuilding methodologies [i.e., high protein/carb intakes, carb loading, glycogen repletion via glucose drinks, etc.]? I am thinking chicken/egg sceanrios here! I am surprised you would still consume things like whey conc., amino acids and [worst of all!] waxy maize starch when you know you are insulin resistant! it is not going to improve insulin sensitivity any time soon!

Have you ever listened to music with the volume turned up pretty loud? After about 20mins or so, you will have probably found that the music doesn't sound quite as loud, so turned the volume up even higher....then the same thing happens twenty minutes later! The same is true with high levels of insulin. It literally 'shouts' full volume at your body and so your sensitivity to it is 'turned down' and your body has to release yet more insulin to have the same effect. The only way to beat insulin resistance is to remove the sources of insulin stimulation!

The opposite scenario to that above, is to listen to music with the volume turned down...eventually you will notice the music seems more audible....your sensitivity has been turned up. Same again for insulin.

Don't fight the body...work with it!

[Tom]

jules whats the cons of over expression of IL-6 long term? how inflammatory is it in terms of the entire systems health, surely localized inflammation (in relation to new tissue growth) cant be that bad.

WRT glycogen repleshing surely theres another bigger picture.
carbohydrates -> insulin -> kinases (several) become phosphorylated (including p70 S-6 kinase which is INCRASED by leucine intake (hint hint) -> phosphorylation -> protein synthesis -> you get hhhhhwwwwuggeee

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Gene expression after exercise is a relatively new area and certainly is being sutided a LOT more in relation to endurance type activities. By not consuming CHOs straight after the exercise it seems to increase the expression of genes that code for various cfactors involved in fat oxidation including the obvious oxidative enzymes.

However, in the short term and indeed when looked at in relation to resistance training whether in the LT or ST I cannot see this conveying ANY benefit especially in this weird 2 training sessions per day situation but I understand no-one on the forum is backing that statement.

Those training bodyparts once a week on say a push pull legs with a very inactive lifestyle may get on ok with this (high fat, lower carbs) as long the correct supplement regime is used.

In reponse to Martin's point above, and as additional info for KP with regard to limiting carb/protein/amino usage and thus avoid aggravating insulin resisitance, here is another snippet from Art's blog:

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Gene Expression and Muscle Glycogen

March 27, 2006 02:16 PM

I said it before and I say it again now: filling your muscles with glycogen is nonsense. I have pointed out how gene expression is altered by your activity and your stores of nutrients, among other things. And I have argued that body builders and runners and others who rush to refill their muscle with glycogen right after a work out are actually turning down the training response.


Now, here is an interesting article that measures gene expression and it shows that it is turned down when your muscles contain a lot of glycogen. You reduce the magnitude of the adaptive response to exercise if you are in a hurry, as so many body builders and runners are, to replenish your glycogen stores. They are not thinking at all about gene signaling and adaptation. They are in the linear thinking mode and must reason in a simple (dumb) inventory framework. Use up the glycogen and refill it right away.

This is one of those non-linearities. If you replace the glycogen right away you turn off the gene expression that builds more muscle and does other complex things in muscle tissue. Note the article speaks of TRANSIENT genetic induction, not a steady state. Inducing transients is the essence of the intermittent approach of Evolutionary Fitness.


The abstract follows... There is something very important about uncoupling protein UCP3 that only I and a few others know about and I may be the only person to incorporate respiratory chain uncoupling in anti-aging model and practice.

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Influence of pre-exercise muscle glycogen content on exercise-induced transcriptional regulation of metabolic genes


Henriette Pilegaard *, Charlotte Keller †, Adam Steensberg †, Jørn Wulff Helge ‡, Bente Klarlund Pedersen †, Bengt Saltin ‡ and P. Darrell Neufer §
The Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre, * The August Krogh Institute, University of Copenhagen, Denmark, † Department of Infectious Diseases, University of Copenhagen, Denmark, ‡ Rigshospitalet, University of Copenhagen, Denmark and § The John B. Pierce Laboratory and Department of Cellular and Molecular Physiology, Yale University, New Haven, CT, USA


Transcription of metabolic genes is transiently induced during recovery from exercise in skeletal muscle of humans. To determine whether pre-exercise muscle glycogen content influences the magnitude and/or duration of this adaptive response, six male subjects performed one-legged cycling exercise to lower muscle glycogen content in one leg and then, the following day, completed 2.5 h low intensity two-legged cycling exercise. Nuclei and mRNA were isolated from biopsies obtained from the vastus lateralis muscle of the control and reduced glycogen (pre-exercise glycogen = 609 ± 47 and 337 ± 33 mmol kg-1 dry weight, respectively) legs before and after 0, 2 and 5 h of recovery. Exercise induced a significant (P < 0.05) increase (2- to 3-fold) in transcription of the pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase 4 (PDK4) and uncoupling protein 3 (UCP3) genes in the reduced glycogen leg only. Although PDK4, lipoprotein lipase (LPL) and hexokinase II (HKII) mRNA were elevated in the reduced glycogen leg before exercise, no consistent difference was found between the two legs in response to exercise. In a second study, six subjects completed two trials (separated by 2 weeks) consisting of 3 h of two-legged knee extensor exercise with either control (398 ± 52 mmol kg-1 dry weight) or low (240 ± 38 mmol kg-1 dry weight) pre-exercise muscle glycogen. Exercise induced a significantly greater increase in PDK4 transcription in the low glycogen (> 6-fold) than in the control (< 3-fold) trial. Induction of PDK4 and UCP3 mRNA in response to exercise was also signficantly higher in the low glycogen (11.4- and 3.5-fold, respectively) than in the control (5.0- and 1.7-fold, respectively) trial. These data indicate that low muscle glycogen content enhances the transcriptional activation of some metabolic genes in response to exercise, raising the possibility that signalling mechanisms sensitive to glycogen content and/or FFA availability may be linked to the transcriptional control of exercise-responsive genes.
In Journal of Physiology (2002), 541.1, pp. 261-271
© Copyright 2002 The Physiological Society
DOI: 10.1113/jphysiol.2002.016832

Also, insulin is an antagonist for growth hormone. Growth hormone is released during training....then you have a sugary/protein/amino drink immediately after your workout and illicit a huge insulin spike. Result? You wipe out the growth hormone!

[Tom]

GH is useless though unless converted.

Plus how much "growth" do you attribute to GH release (in a natural athlete)