Against Glycogen Repletion...

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Yes I know - I'm using the opposing view to give comparison. Please don't think I'm against the concept of this thread, I just think the hypothosis of a debate should always be reminded of the opposing position

Agreed...Just making sure everyone knows the kick-off point [it is thirty-odd pages back!].

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I think you misread me; I said prevents the sudden drop-off in insulin

'Sudden' being the key word. The idea behind a gradual build-up and tail-off in blood sugar with dex and malto is to avoid the lethargic crash which occurs with high dextrose intake alone. Also, since the blood glucose will become available more slowly this way than with dex alone, it should only raise insulin moderately for longer, rather than greatly for shorter duration. This should theorhetically also avoid some of the potential negative issues you raise.

This is a non sequitur! Preventing a sudden drop off in insulin will not result in avoiding a blood sugar crash as the presence of insulin clears glucose from the bloodstream and would precipitate reactive hypoglycemia. The second part is correct: a gradual build up of blood sugar [and tail off] would prevent a sudden blood sugar 'crash' but that would only occur in the [relative] absence of insulin - so you would want to clear insulin from the system as quickly as possible .

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Is a speculative point of argument in one sense, but is also something I'm experimenting with in my own training at the moment.

The reason, again speculative, for avoiding cortisol is that raised levels in the blood affect ALL muscles, not just those trained. So while the rebuilding process you suggest is good reasoning not to worry too much about cortisol affecting the muscles worked during the session, the nontrained muscles in that session would also be unnecessarily broken down. A moderate raise in insulin would hopefully prevent this.

But protein synthesis induced by the consumption of protein/amino acids also affect all tissues equally, not just the muscles trained [therefore negating any breakdown that may be caused by cortisol - equilibrium or homeostasis - something the human body always strives to maintain]. Protein synthesis which is induced by training and the resultant influx of the real anabolic agents like testosterone, GH and IGF-1 affects the muscle tissues that have been trained. Along with the blanket PS previously mentioned, this leads to a positive accumulation of muscle tissue in the muscles trained and no loss in untrained muscle.

As I have detailed in earlier posts, nitrogen balance can be determined by the very crude method of determining nitrogen containing foods in less nitrogenous by-products elminated. However when studies used labeled leucine incorporation into biopsied muscle tissue to determine protein synthesis it was discovered that the nitrogenous by-products excreted were not catabolised muscle tissue but other 'junk' proteins that were cluttering up cells within the body and, if not removed and catabolised, would eventually cause cellular damage or dysfunction. It was the amino acids liberated from these 'junk' proteins by chaperone mediated autophagy that ensured muscle tissue was maintained and augmented. All of these processes are stunted by insulin.

As I've already mentioned, cells are more sensitive to insulin after exercise for a good reason: so that they will respond to lower insulin levels which, in turn, will not interfere with the anabolic milieu that is generated during post-workout recovery.

Cortisol does not just cause catabolic wasting of muscle tissue [if at all - again the body does not arbitrarily destroy life preserving tissue unless in extended starvation] it also breaks down fatty tissue [which is there as an energy substrate storage medium] to release fatty acids. Fatty acid usage liberates glycerol which, along with lactic acid and glucogenic amino acids that are not required for protein synthesis, may be used in gluconeogenesis to replenish glucose and glyconeogenesis to directly replace glycogen.

[Dtlv74]

Okay, I get what you mean about the insulin response and that does make sense. I was indeed theorising under a misunderstanding

I had to read the second part of your reply twice - not because it was unclear but it's gone 1am, and I'm up with a raging cold and a bit foggy-headed - but that actually clears a few things up too. I had actually read a study on the inhibitory properties of Insulin between making that post and your reply and I can see the sense of your argument based upon the evidence.

The hightened insulin sensitivity of cells post workout does possibly suggest that as well as being adapted to respond to low insulin levels, that some nutrient shuttling is still also required - so how do you stand on BCAA, Leucine and/or EAA's post workout? Slightly off the topic I know but still part of the equation.

Oh yes and in relation to insulin resistance, I found this an hour or so ago which makes an interesting read;

http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/reprint/554/3/595.pdf

[kp1512]

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Why do you think the insulin sensitivity of cells increase immediately after exercise?

Because as mentioned a few times, the reactionary processes that are taking place during the stimulus make this happen, AMP-activated protein kinase; GLUT4 processes will provide you with more answers.

But here is one for starters

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Physical activity has a beneficial effect on insulin sensitivity in normal as well as insulin resistant populations. A distinction should be made between the acute effects of exercise and genuine training effects. Up to two hours after exercise, glucose uptake is in part elevated due to insulin independent mechanisms, probably involving a contraction-induced increase in the amount of GLUT4 associated with the plasma membrane and T-tubules. However, a single bout of exercise can increase insulin sensitivity for at least 16 h post exercise in healthy as well as NIDDM subjects. Recent studies have accordingly shown that acute exercise also enhances insulin stimulated GLUT4 translocation. Increases in muscle GLUT4 protein content contribute to this effect, and in adddition it has been hypothesized that the depletion of muscle glycogen stores with exercise plays a role herein. Physical training potentiates the effect of exercise on insulin sensitivity through multiple adaptations in glucose transport and metabolism. In addition, training may elicit favourable changes in lipid metabolism and can bring about improvements in the regulation of hepatic glucose output, which is especially relevant to NIDDM. It is concluded that physical training can be considered to play an important, if not essential role in the treatment and prevention of insulin insensitivity.

Again, the last bolded sentence, further qualifies my statement on WHY you cannot compare trained \ non trained atheletes as they induce different processes.

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Not so that you can deafen them with the roar of a sugar-induced insulin surge! That way lies insulin resistance, syndrome X, high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease and stroke. Having big muscles does not put anyone above the laws of basic human biology...unless you live on Mount Olympus?

Of course high levels of simple carbs will do this, but anyone taking this approach is asking for it anyway. The answer isnt taking excess amounts, its starting at a low figure, say 20-50g mixed GI Carbohydrates, and working from there.

Id agree that having muscles has nothing to do with basic human biology; but only to a limited degree.

- Yes both trained and untrained atheletes will grow older
- Both will no doubt go through there genetic predisposed lifecycle

But the underlying point is that a trained individual, puts his body through a reactionary lifecycle, which to all intents and purposes makes alot of changes to the body. This is why requirements between the two groups of people demand and produce variable outputs.

KP

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Okay, I get what you mean about the insulin response and that does make sense. I was indeed theorising under a misunderstanding

I had to read the second part of your reply twice - not because it was unclear but it's gone 1am, and I'm up with a raging cold and a bit foggy-headed - but that actually clears a few things up too. I had actually read a study on the inhibitory properties of Insulin between making that post and your reply and I can see the sense of your argument based upon the evidence.

It was gone 1am when I finished writing it - I think - so I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been unclear....glad you could make sense of it.

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The hightened insulin sensitivity of cells post workout does possibly suggest that as well as being adapted to respond to low insulin levels, that some nutrient shuttling is still also required - so how do you stand on BCAA, Leucine and/or EAA's post workout? Slightly off the topic I know but still part of the equation.

I don't think they are absolutely necessary if people are eating well around their training times but they would certainly be a lot less counter-productive than high GI carbs PWO. They would certainly help to induce 'full-body' protein synthesis as already discussed. However, it is my understanding that of all the macronutrients, protein has the greatest direct cortisol stimulating effect. Make sense of that one!

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Oh yes and in relation to insulin resistance, I found this an hour or so ago which makes an interesting read;

http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/reprint/554/3/595.pdf

Thanks for that - I've saved it for later perusal [along with the hundreds of similar papers I have on my HDD at the moment!]. Reading the first few lines of the abstract, though, it does remind me of something I posted to this thread a while back about IMTG being the fatty acid equivalent of muscle glycogen. Serum glucose flows into and out of muscle glycogen [that is why muscle glycogen is not as depleted by a workout as most people think - it is constantly being reformed from incoming serum glucose as glucose is being liberated from pre-existing glycogen]. The same goes for serum fatty acids and IMTG the former flows into and reconstitutes the latter as the latter is broken down to deliver FAs to the mitochndria in the muscle cells. In a fat adapted athlete this triple system [including ketone bodies] ensures plenty of energy is available from both fats and glucose; the former sparing the latter to an increasing extent.

PS Hope your cold gets better soon [too many carbs compromising your immune system, perhaps? ]

[kp1512]

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Oh yes and in relation to insulin resistance, I found this an hour or so ago which makes an interesting read;

http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/reprint/554/3/595.pdf

Good document, what is more valuabe is the reference studies at the end.

I found the very first sentence ironic lol.Cause and Effect!

His starting assumptions were interesting, as well as reduction of FFA and IR....hence why Glycine can be a very powerful supplement on Low Carb and PWO

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Whole-body insulin sensitivity is acutely improved following a single bout of exercise (Perseghin et al. 1996), but the effect is transient and appears to be proportional to exercise severity (Thompson et al. 2001). Chronic physical activity is also associated with improved insulin sensitivity (King et al. 1987; Rodnick et al. 1987) yet this adaptation is also rapidly diminished within six days of cessation of regular exercise (Mikines et al. 1989; Vukovich et al. 1996). Although resumption of training after short-term (10 days) inactivity restores glucose tolerance to near preinactivity levels (Heath et al. 1983), insulin sensitivity is not fully recovered (Dela et al. 1992), indicating a less plastic adaptive effect of training distinct from that of acute exercise.

KP

[kp1512]

I thought Id post this as its from Prof John Berardi (who is well versed in leading research and also trains and makes world class champions across many disciplines, so I think its safe to say theres a basis for his world to be slightly more credible than someone who does not train or has no other means to verify claims, later being obv way more important to a subjective degree)

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Simple Steps to Optimizing Post-Workout Nutrition

by grrlathlete.com
John M. Berardi is a scientist and PhD candidate in the area of Exercise and Nutritional Biochemistry at the University of Western Ontario, Canada. His company, Science Link: Translating Research into Results, specializes in providing integrated training, and nutritional programs for high-level strength and endurance athletes.

Through his consulting businesses, John works with a diverse client population including high-level athletes wanting to win medals and championships. Furthermore, John will be completing his PhD with a specialization in exercise and nutritional biochemistry this fall. To say that this guy knows his stuff is an understatement.

In this issue, we decided to pick John's oversized brain (no really, he does have an abnormally large head) to get his thoughts on a very important topic
- Post Workout Nutrition.


grrlAthlete.com: John, what have you found to be the biggest mistake in post-workout nutrition by athletes, and female athletes in particular?

John Berardi: The biggest mistake people are making is not doing anything at all about post-workout nutrition! Nutritionally, most people don't plan for success - not even many of the most elite of the elite that we regularly work with.

I learned this lesson when I started working with a group of Canadian Olympians a few years back. When I spoke with them about their nutrition and supplementation I was flabbergasted with their lack of nutrition knowledge.

Now, prior to this time I would have anticipated nutritional ignorance or misinformation from the average person but not from elite athletes. But I was wrong. In fact, the athletes were just about as misinformed as the general public.

GA: That's too bad. What steps did you take after that?

JB: After re-wwEvaluating my premises, I realized that because most athletes can stay lean and fit from high volumes of training their poor nutritional choices could be masked by a body that looks well nourished and healthy. Also, because they are already elite, they think they must be "dialed in". It's unfortunate that most of them never know just how outstanding they could be if they really took care of their nutrition.

So, once I get a hold of their programs, those already good-looking bodies usually change as their fat mass decreases and muscle mass increases. But even more importantly, they also improve their performance. This is why I spend a lot of time with my clients and athletes (even the ones that already look great); educating them about making appropriate food choices and helping them improve the timing of their intake.

GA: John, could you describe some case studies or examples?

JB: For example, most athletes don't know that certain food choices before exercise can actually reduce their performance. Furthermore, few know that the 6 hours after exercise are absolutely critical to recovery. My PhD work has focused on the latter.

As a result of my academic training and my laboratory data, I've learned how to use food timing to maximize recovery after exercise. And while this is easy to do in athletes who don't mind gaining weight (i.e. just eat A LOT), it's much harder to do in the athletes who want to lose weight (i.e. most female athletes and athletes in whom the power to weight ratio must be high).

GA: So what types of things can someone do to maximize their recovery during these 6 hours?

JB: [/b]Well, for starters, there is a key principle at work here. Basically, the muscles are most efficient at carbohydrate and energy uptake during this time. Therefore the bulk of an athlete's calories (especially carbohydrates) should come during this post-workout period. [/b]

Since fat is burned at high rates during the post exercise period regardless of what food you eat, during this time most of the ingested energy (protein and carbohydrates) will go to replenish the depleted muscle energy stores and to enhance recovery.

Think of it this way. If you were to eat 100g of carbohydrates for lunch and 50g were to end up in muscle stores to promote recovery and 50g were to end up in fat stores to make you fatter, your body composition wouldn't be improving and recovery wouldn't be maximized. But if you were to save those 100g of carbohydrates until after exercise, all those carbohydrates would go to the muscles for recovery with none of them going to fat cells. So which scenario do you prefer?

GA: Are you suggesting that athletes should only eat carbohydrates after exercise?

JB: Nope, what I'm saying is that you should minimize carbohydrate intake during most meals of the day and feed the body most of the carbs during the 6 hour recovery period. I've used this strategy with extreme success in all types of athletes from elite endurance cyclists to female fitness competitors who need to minimize total body weight and fat weight while recovering well and maintaining a high level of performance.

But almost as important as the carbohydrate strategies, the protein content of the post-workout period is critical.

My studies are demonstrating that post-workout nutrition should contain protein and carbohydrates in a ratio of 2g of carbohydrate to every 1g of protein.

My athletes consume a liquid recovery drink of 0.8g/kg of carbs and 0.4g/kg of protein immediately after training.

GA: Based on your research, what is the optimal approach for a team sport athlete, say a female basketball player, to take after a game or practice?

JB: How about I give you an optimal daily strategy for a female basketball player who practices from 4:00-6:00pm?

Here's what I might recommend (remember this is just a sample and doesn't apply to all female basketball players). Notice that the bulk of the carbohydrates come during/after exercise.

8am Breakfast - 6 egg white omelet with 1-cup veggies and 1 piece of fat free cheese.

10am Snack - Protein shake in water with added flaxseed oil

12pm Lunch - 3oz Chicken breast and large salad with fish oil capsules

2pm Snack - Protein shake in water with added flaxseed oil

4pm-6pm Practice - Glucose-electrolyte beverage like Gatorade

6pm Post-workout - Liquid drink containing 20-25g fast digesting protein (like whey) and 40-50g of simple carbohydrate (like Gatorade)

8pm Dinner - 4oz burger, large salad, medium sized baked potato, fish oil capsules

10pm Snack before bed - Plain yogurt, 2 pieces of fresh fruit

GA: What if an athlete has another game or practice the next day?

JB: There is no difference. Remember, the post-workout carbohydrate and protein consumption can rapidly replenish muscle carbohydrate stores; much more rapidly than trying to do so during the other meals of the day. So the athlete such as a basketball player should be ready by the next day.

GA: Would an endurance athlete need to take any additional measures? (Again, with a training session scheduled within 24 hours).

JB: The strategy for a hard training endurance athlete would be to double up on the post-workout recovery drink. I have my endurance athletes take two post exercise recovery drinks as discussed above; one immediately after training and one an hour later.

My research has shown that this strategy (especially with the inclusion of the protein) can improve muscle glycogen recovery by 22% when compared to carbohydrate only ingestion. But even more importantly, when endurance athletes come back to exercise on the same day, they perform over twice as well when protein and carbohydrate drinks are ingested when compared to when carbohydrate only drinks are ingested or food meals are eaten later in recovery.

GA: So it really is critical to have carbs and protein after training for both muscle recovery and performance?

JB: Yep, we're in the process of publishing the first ever data conclusively demonstrating this in endurance athletes.

GA: And finally, for this interview (we've got lots more to ask in future editions!), what post-workout regimen have you found most effective on tournament days (for basketball in this example, with 3 games on one day and the games 90 minutes apart)?

JB: During tournament days, I think liquid nutrition is paramount.

Besides a good breakfast containing low glycemic index carbohydrates (like oatmeal, fruit, and whole grain breads), high quality protein, and good fats, it's critical to fuel up with liquid protein and carbohydrate drinks all day between games. Keeping the ratio of carbs to protein the same (2:1), sipping recovery drinks all day will maximize muscle energy stores and performance during each subsequent game.

As long as the athlete is sure to have a good breakfast (as mentioned) and a good lunch meal (similar to the breakfast guidelines), the rest of the day should be spent sipping protein and carbs.

please visit www.johnberardi.com.

KP

[Dtlv74]

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Good document, what is more valuabe is the reference studies at the end.

I thought that too - My day could well be taken up with hours of hunting for studies on the internet (in between coughing, sneezing and bouts of the sweats!).

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PS Hope your cold gets better soon [too many carbs compromising your immune system, perhaps? ]

Ha - kick a man while he's down why don't you!!! I'll have you know I'm a dedicated low carber...

[kp1512]

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I thought that too - My day could well be taken up with hours of hunting for studies on the internet (in between coughing, sneezing and bouts of the sweats!).

I hope you do...as youll no doubt find some good data, and able to conclude a fair amount.....

KP

[Dtlv74]

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I thought Id post this as its from Prof John Berardi (who is well versed in leading research and also trains and makes world class champions across many disciplines, so I think its safe to say theres a basis for his world to be slightly more credible than someone who does not train or has no other means to verify claims, later being obv way more important to a subjective degree)

KP

A good article KP. Am finding this debate interesting as I can see sense on both sides of it, suggesting to me that the mechanism behind the recovery process has more influencing factors than research currently demonstrates...

[kp1512]

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A good article KP. Am finding this debate interesting as I can see sense on both sides of it, suggesting to me that the mechanism behind the recovery process has more influencing factors than research currently demonstrates...

Cannot agree with you enough!

Again, Cause and Effect.

The main issue with this thread is that the entire basis has been on someone elses data, ALONE. The studies are a means to progress and take to task....that's where the REAL results and observations are gained. Even so, alot of these very controlled studies are flawed as well, as they dont replicate what a "normal" trainee does?!.

And to even suggest that there is no difference between a trained and an untrained person, when looking at studies \ hormonal responses; well is servely flawed; to be nice!

Also bear in mind, we have a wealth of information from experience based people who are actually sent these findings as and when released. There trainers have pools of people to review emerging and current data on the body...as they seek to make vast amounts of money, and kudos when\if they make champions. Names

1st/ Charles Poliquin

2nd/ Christian Thibadeau

3rd/ Chad Waterbury.

4th/ Fred Hatfield

5th/ Charles Glass

6th/ Milos Sarcev

7th Paul Check

8th/ Bill Star

9th/ Charles Poliquin

10th / Mike Menzter

11th/ Arthur Jones

12th/ Dante

to name a few

I am sure youd, and 99.9% of people would agree, we have seen alot in controlled studies, which sadly when performed in real life, dont tally up and are simply thrown in the bin.

Experience is Key...studies and references are a mere basis to elaborate in real world subjects

KP