Against Glycogen Repletion...

[simon m]

Nu

Is the crux of this thread is that you don't need simple carbs to reload after exercise as your body will use it's fat deposits as energy, so a high fat diet is preferably to a high carb diet as it keeps energy on tap and makes you feel fuller?

[Tom]

simon you dont need dextrose you need a carbohydrate.

Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure

[NU_nutrition_TS]

If you go by the OP, then the crux of the thread is that protein synthesis/gene expression, etc., etc. [all the things that occur in order for a muscle to grow and get bigger] happen in a trained muscle MORE/BETTER if it is glycogen depleted. However, as most threads mutate [and most threads that I post in mutate to a high fat/low carb argument], you could also say that adopting that dietary approach would satisfy the requirements for the former!

And it is my way of saying there are studies that show possible mechanisms as to why people who adopt this way of eating don't always report a lack of energy overall, a lack of energy to lift weights or a loss of lean mass and huge gains in body fat!

[simon m]

Thanks Tom

I'll can the sports drink and have some rice!

[Tom]

nu by what pathway though would protein synthesis occur if you are depleted?


it would appear that
a. the body strives to replensih glycogen anyway
b. insulin will upregulate GLUT4
c. insulin increases phosylation
d. protein synthesis from amino acid transport which is increased by CHO intake will repair muscles from exercise
e. if the body doesnt get fuel after exercise it wont like you because a. it will be hungry b. the body strives to repair if it cant get replenishment i expect corticosteriods will start to play and breakdown tissue.
f. i get hungry post workout

[Tom]

Nu what do you suggests as a PWO strategy?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Quote

GH is useless though unless converted.

Plus how much "growth" do you attribute to GH release (in a natural athlete)

Quote

GH acts as an anabolic hormone via insulin-like
growth factor-1 (IGF-1) to increase amino acid uptake and protein
synthesis and as a metabolic hormone to stimulate lipolysis and
reduce carbohydrate metabolism to maintain blood glucose levels.

The point is, if there is any benefit to be had from the production of endogenous GH, isn't it better to have it then not have it? If carb induced insulin spikes counteract GH it would be better to go with the GH and avoid the insulin spikes from post training carb/protein/amino ingestion:

Quote

The practice of consuming specific amino acids, in particular
arginine, lysine, and ornithine, to increase GH levels during or
after exercise does not appear to be effective.

The GH response also is lower in males than in females and lower in individuals consuming diets high in protein. Further, exercise is a potent stimulus for GH release, and oral supplementation of amino acids has not been shown to augment the exercise-induced GH increase.

Quotes from 'Use of Amino Acids as Growth Hormone-Releasing Agents by Athletes' by Joseph A Chromiak, PhD & Jose Antonio PhD From the Department of Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Sport, Mississippi
State University, Mississippi State, Mississippi, USA; and Rexall Sundown,
Boca Raton, Florida, USA

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Quote

nu by what pathway though would protein synthesis occur if you are depleted?


it would appear that
a. the body strives to replensih glycogen anyway
b. insulin will upregulate GLUT4
c. insulin increases phosylation
d. protein synthesis from amino acid transport which is increased by CHO intake will repair muscles from exercise
e. if the body doesnt get fuel after exercise it wont like you because a. it will be hungry b. the body strives to repair if it cant get replenishment i expect corticosteriods will start to play and breakdown tissue.
f. i get hungry post workout

Quote

Nu what do you suggests as a PWO strategy?

Tom I have learned to trust what my body tells me. If I'm hungry, I eat. When I'm full, I stop eating. If it is 'lunch time' and I don't feel hungry I don't each lunch. If it is not yet 'supper time' and I feel hungry I eat. Just because science endeavours to explain why/how things happen doesn't mean it should be taken seriously or literally when it pretends to be able to do things better than nature.

I would not have a PWO strategy. I would do what my body tells me...eat a meal or not eat a meal. I certainly wouldn't do it by the clock! I'm sure if my glycogen needs to be replenished it will do it in it's own sweet time and using it's own sweet method without me having to scientifically work out a 'magic potion' to consume!

[sendos]

I've learnt alot from this thread. keep the debate going. It certainly does make sense to me not replenishing glycogen inthe muscles immediatly post workout. Its the whole evolutionary theory again. When at any point were we able to immediatly replenish our glycogen stores post intense exercise before agricultural methods. Did we even have access to carbs in any form, we didnt have grains oats etc, we certainly didnt have dextrose.

[kp1512]

Quote

Sorry to hear that KP. You say you have been insulin resistant for the last 10 years. May I ask, how long have you been training/dieting ala bodybuilding methodologies [i.e., high protein/carb intakes, carb loading, glycogen repletion via glucose drinks, etc.]? I am thinking chicken/egg sceanrios here! I am surprised you would still consume things like whey conc., amino acids and [worst of all!] waxy maize starch when you know you are insulin resistant! it is not going to improve insulin sensitivity any time soon!

Well...I take WMS\ Whey PWO, and days where I feel I need carbs I consume Rolled Oats. Its pretty much hit and miss on the carb thing I will say. This is another reason why I have used variants of the TKD and Animabolics diet. Sometimes I reverse the caloric count from the PWO mean to my next workout, othertimes I consume a standard PWO and then follow it up with a bowl of Oats. I then drive my BG down will KRALA. To me KRALA is a life saver in that I can get away with filling myself out and quickly drive my BG down.

I will be really honest in that I still do beleive we do need Carbs PWO. I just cant see how the body could re-stablise itself after a heavy glycogen depleting session. Also, bear in mind that I do train psuedo Hi Intensity and alot of the times, durng mass phases I am totaly wiped out PWO......I have experiemented extensively with the myself in terms of dropping PWO carbs and even consuming Protein etc etc.. But the best results ive gained are with a high carbs PWO. THEN a transient switch to Protein and Fats....till my next workout...

KP