Against Glycogen Repletion...

[Gareth83]

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Scanning through this I think training methods may well have been missed out as a factor for Post Workout Carb intake, although i may be wrong and missed it's inclusion.

It's definitely been discussed, can't remember what page.

I think in summary I think the vast majority of us consume too many PWO carbs than necessary. The debate about replenishing glycogen "immediately" PWO or throughout the following day is still out there.

But either way I think we can all agree that not many of us tap into our glycogen stores as much as we think, hence no need for the usual 1g per kg carbs PWO.

If one were to follow a PWO shake I think Lyle and Poliquin have the best protocols out there as their PWO shakes take into account "roughly" what has been used.

[AlexTemper]

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Again, not going to argue that Alex. Goes back to demand and the work each person puts on there body. I would suspect that you would be more carb depleted then me, based on the workload you did and I do. Obv it all depends on what you do outside of the gym and how many carbs you take. But in terms of net-glycogen...youd have less in your muscles after your sessions then me.

But I think the key point here, is the amount of work v the amount of glycogen used. I say 40-50gms being max...but I been taking 40g with no negative impact, but the opposite.....maybe I could take less?...I can try with 30g in time....

KP

I think overall body tollerance is a factor that ties in here also. For example my daily carb intake before a Workout barely reaches 100g! Considering how much I cram in you'd expect that I'd crash through my workout with depleted glygogen and that I'd take in big amounts Post Workout, neither of which is the case. I put this down to my body tollerating and adapting over time.

With yourself only recently training again initially your PWO Carb requirements would be greater but as time progresses I bet this will drop as you've already suggested with 40g having no negative effect and a possible drop to 30g.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Possibly one of the primary factors affecting glucose/glycogen usage and, thus, the need for repletion will be pre-workout carb consumption. This actually diminishes the percentage contribution of fats to the energy provision equation during a workout and increases the reliance on carbs. I think this has been discussed previously.

[MeshMan]

Geeze! What an amazing thread!

Just read up to page 15 over an hour and half and can say, I certainly will be finishing this.

You guys are so knowledgable it makes me feel very proud to be a member on this forum around such a bunch of talented people.

Great work guys.

[Gareth83]

what page you up to now then mesh??

[Gareth83]

Thought this would be best posted in this thread, although it could have tied into many other recent threads:

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Eat smart after exercise
by Jeff S. Volek, Ph.D., R.D., F.A.C.N.
There are many options available for post workout protein beverages. Some are primarily protein while others have varying amounts of carbohydrates or fat. Few studies have directly compared the effects of different combinations of protein and carbohydrate after exercise.

Researchers from the Netherlands addressed the impact of co-ingestion of various amounts of carbohydrates combined with protein on the rate of protein synthesis in healthy young men. On three separate occasions subjects performed a 60-minute resistance exercise workout followed by one of three supplements and further measurements of protein synthesis for 6 hours during recovery. Supplementation over the 6 hour recovery period consisted of 0.3 g/kg of a casein hydrolysate per hour combined with either no carbohydrate, low carbohydrate (0.15 g/kg) or high carbohydrate (0.6 g/kg). For a 180 pound man this equates to about 25g protein per hour, and about 12g and 49g carbohydrate per hour for the low and high carbohydrate trials.

As expected, there was a significant increase in muscle protein synthesis during recovery in the protein-only trial. The co-ingestion of carbohydrate with adequate protein did not further augment protein synthesis. These findings show protein as the most important nutrient to consume after resistance exercise, and further indicate that adding carbohydrates offers little benefit. This is good news if you are trying to lose body fat because it means you can get an optimal anabolic effect from protein alone without adding additional calories from carbohydrate and the accompanying insulin response that will inhibit fat breakdown.

Reference: Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2007 Sep;293:E833-E842.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Nice addition to the thread, Gareth, but you might want to delete the link to the article source as they are selling supplements!

[adguig]

I always find this debate interesting because it has such mixed results. I personally find a huge difference between having no, little or even a decent amount of solid food carbs after a workout, and having 30g malto/dextrose mix with my protein post workout. I am always less sore with the 30g, anything more doesn't seem to do much extra and less means soreness is increased. This is an effect I have found time and time again and despite there being research on both sides of the fence, I'm carrying on with this protocol because it works for me.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Trying to ameliorate DOMS with PWO carbs is a bit like masking the pain of a sprained ankle by taking aspirin; you get a false sense of recovery and place additional stress on the injury before it has fully recovered.

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Nobody really knows how these hard bouts make muscles stronger, but the most likely theory depends on the fact that hard exercise damages muscle fibers. Then other cells release chemicals called cytokines that cause inflammation characterized by soreness (pain), increased blood flow to the injured fibers (redness), and increased flow of fluid into the damaged area (swelling). The damaged muscle cells release tissue growth factors to heal the damaged muscle fibers, and if the athlete allows the muscle soreness to disappear before exercising intensely again, muscle fibers become larger and increase in number by splitting to form new fibers. If the athlete does not wait until the soreness goes away before exercising intensely again, the fibers can be torn, the athlete becomes injured, and the muscles weaken.

http://www.drmirkin.com/public/Ezine082805.html

As you can see from the description above, DOMS is likely caused by the release of cytokines into the damaged muscle (also check myokines towards the beginning of this thread). Carb ingestion disrupts this process:

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These data indicate that carbohydrate...is associated with higher plasma glucose levels...and a diminished pro- and anti-inflammatory cytokine response.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9588607

You may be easing the discomfort in the short term by doing this but you are also blunting the recovery process and by easing the symptoms you risk training sooner than is optimal for full recovery and adaptation. In the long term this could lead to being 'injury-prone':

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The role of inflammation during exercise-induced muscle injury has not been clearly defined. It is possible that the inflammatory response may be responsible for initiating, amplifying, and/or resolving skeletal muscle injury. Evidence from the literature of the involvement of cytokines, complement, neutrophils, monocytes and macrophages in the acute phase response are presented in this review. Clinically, DOMS is a common but self-limiting condition that usually requires no treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7481277

[sendos]

Thats interesting, i've never really thought of DOMS as an acute inflammatory response. Makes sense.. inflammatory respsonses occur when there's tissue damage, DOMS is just an exercised induced form of tissue damage. I cant see why any of the leucocytes or the complement system would be involved though as they are immunological factors.