Against Glycogen Repletion...

[Gareth83]

I can't see why adguig experiences doms when consuming carbs from real food sources but not glucose/maltodextrin.

It's not like they contain any nutrients or anti-oxidant. They're just nutrient void calories

[Martay]

This thread is epic. Props to everyone for their research and input... interesting stuff!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Thats interesting, i've never really thought of DOMS as an acute inflammatory response. Makes sense.. inflammatory respsonses occur when there's tissue damage, DOMS is just an exercised induced form of tissue damage. I cant see why any of the leucocytes or the complement system would be involved though as they are immunological factors.

As in any scientific research, knowledge is constantly evolving and not everyone agrees on every hypothesis. However, if you read any study or article on the inflammatory response to tissue damage there is usually some mention of an allied immunological response too:

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Can. J. Physiol. Pharmacol. 76(5): 469–472 (1998)

Immune responses to inflammation and trauma: a physical training model
Roy J. Shephard & Pang N. Shek

Abstract: Physical activity and training have some potential as tools for examining immune responses to inflammation and trauma. Contributors to the present symposium review various aspects of the inflammatory process, including issues of lymphocyte recirculation and endotoxemia. They examine also the extent and nature of the immune disturbances induced by acute and chronic exercise and consider parallels between such responses and cellular manifestations of clinical sepsis. Factors modulating immune responses during physical activity include changes in the circulating levels of various cytokines, alterations in nutritional status, an altered expression of adhesion molecules, and the possible intervention of reactive species. Factors that can exacerbate exercise-induced changes include exposure to adverse environments, particularly hot conditions, and disturbances of the normal sleep-wakefulness cycle. Current research in exercise immunology finds clinical application in attempts to regulate aging, acute viral infections, and neoplasia.

Key words: cold exposure, environmental stress, heat exposure, high altitudes, immunosuppression.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Since the subject of cytokines - in particular interleukin-6 (IL-6) - has been re-introduced to this thread I thought I would reproduce the following (to save people searching back through the first few pages to find the relevant data, which was posted back then!):

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Is Interleukin-6 The “Holy Grail” Of Exercise Mediation? Call To Rename Class Of Muscle-Derived IL-6 As “Myokines”

Austin, Texas (Oct. 6, 2004) – For the most of the past century, researchers have searched for a muscle-contraction-induced factor, which mediates some of the exercise effects in other tissues and organs such as the liver and adipose tissue. In their quest for this magic trigger, or class of effectors, it’s been referred to as the “work stimulus,” “work factor” or the “exercise factor.”

Bente Karlund Pedersen, professor of internal medicine at Rigshospitalet and leader of the Muscle Center at the University of Copenhagen, Denmark, and her team are part of that search. They found a cytokine, Interleukin-6, which is produced by contracting muscles and released into the blood, and demonstrated that IL-6 has many biologic roles, including:

• Activation/inhibition of metabolic genes
• Induction of lipolysis, or the breakdown of fat
• Inhibition of insulin resistance, and
• Suppression of tumor necrosis factor (TNF) production.

In fact, Pedersen says the wide impact of muscle-derived IL-6 not only fulfills all the criteria for this “exercise factor” but that such classes of cytokines should be reclassified as “myokines.” She points out that because of its diverse effects, IL-6 has potential as a therapeutic drug in treating such metabolic disorders as obesity, type 2 diabetes and atherosclerosis.

Many roles and sources prompt additional IL-6 research

Over the years, “increased levels of IL-6 after exercise is remarkably consistent,” Pedersen and a collaborator, Mark A. Febbraio of the Dept. of Physiology at the University of Melbourne, Australia, noted in an article in the FASEB Journal. However, the actual appearance of IL-6 into circulation depends on several factors including exercise intensity, duration and mode. For instance, vigorous rowing doubles the amount of IL-6 in plasma relatively quickly, while in endurance activity IL-6 doesn’t appear until later. Activation of the IL-6 gene seems to be enhanced when muscle glycogen content is low, while carbohydrate supplementation during exercise has been shown to inhibit the release of IL-6 from contracting muscle.

What does seem consistent is that IL-6 originates from the contracting limb and that skeletal muscle cells themselves are the likely source of production. The skeletal muscles seem to produce IL-6 in order to maintain metabolic homeostasis during periods of altered metabolic demand such as muscular exercise or insulin stimulation.

Such a powerful effector has also attracted some negative reaction, but Pedersen notes that IL-6 overall seems to have a “positive metabolic role in health and in the treatment of disease.” For instance high levels of IL-6 have been found in patients with “metabolic syndrome,” which may be explained by the fact that IL-6 is produced in adipose tissue. Similarly, increased levels of TNF-alpha and IL-6 have been observed in obese individuals, smokers and patients with non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus but there’s no evidence that either is actually the source of these problems.

Indeed, it’s possible, for instance, that IL-6 expression may be up-regulated in insulin resistant skeletal muscle in an attempt to overcome the impaired glucose uptake. And in other contexts, the current thinking is that IL-6 has primarily anti-inflammatory effects. It is this combination of effects that has prompted such widespread study.

Source: The American Physiological Society

[myprotein.com]

This thread is a wealth of useful information!

Anyone who is a member of Digg or del.icio.us click below:

http://digg.com/submit?phase=2&url=h...php%3Ft%3D8534
http://del.icio.us/post?url=http%3A%...ogen+Repletion

MP

[Gareth83]

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This thread is a wealth of useful information!

Anyone who is a member of Digg or del.icio.us click below:

http://digg.com/submit?phase=2&url=h...php%3Ft%3D8534
http://del.icio.us/post?url=http%3A%...ogen+Repletion

MP

Not sure what either of those sites are?

This thread would be very good if Jules' drunken ramblings were deleted from the first few pages. It could be quite off putting to someone

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Cheers MP, that means a lot! Many thanks, also, to everyone who has contributed to this thread and kept it alive - both pro and con - it has given me plenty of 'fat' to chew on and inspired me to dig deeper than I might otherwise have done!

[Bobby-bandito]

one day i will understand this thread.

[myprotein.com]

We have removed jule's "off topic" posts from the start now as its agreed it wasn't a good start to a thread that does contain alot of useful information \ debate.

MP

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Thanks MP. I hope no offense is caused to jules, who subsequently made some constructive comments that helped propel the debate forward.

It is interesting to go back to the beginning of this thread and start to read through it again after almost a year has passed. I have noticed that I posted some data on certain aspects of glycogen repletion that I have subsequently posted about in other threads. The data here, though, makes a much better case for allowing glycogen to replete in its own time without the need to take PWO carbs: http://forum.myprotein.co.uk/showthr...?t=8534&page=9