Against Glycogen Repletion...

[sendos]

Ah ha! thanks a lot NU thats cleared alot up for me, i've been trying to get my head around this for a few days and havnt found a defintive awnser what with all the contraindication from the studys i can find. Think that deserves a rep.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Thanks - and no probs! Just to be 'exact' here is the original explanation as it appeared in Dr. Eades' Protein Power blog:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/k...ans-our-cells/

[martinrogers]

In the Anabolic diet my understanding is that DiPasquale argues in favour of a periodic (weekly) significant increase in carbs for a number of reasons:

1. this will 'stress' the body, making it subsequently more anabolic.
Yes, this will stop fat burning, presumably until the carbs have repleted glycogen and the rest of the carbs have been used for the recovery from the last workout/excess laid to fat. I think its claimed that this is far less likely to happened at this time (low glycogen, post workout, after 5/6 days of 30gms of carbs.

2. something to do with leptin and ghrelin levels, no idea what ...

I've reviewed this thread, don't believe I saw or understood that the 2nd point had been covered.

Does anybody have a clear explanation or more detail than the ebook
offers.

[sendos]

Leptin is a hormone that controls lipid metabolism, when your on a consistently low calorie/carb diet your body believes your are experiencing a period of starvation and responds by down regulating the production of leptin. This causes fat metabolism to slow down and encourages your body to hold onto the fat stores it has. The whole point in carb refeeds is really to up regulate the production of hormones that control fatty acid metabolism.

Ghrelin regulates appetite, in high concentrations it increases appetite and in low concentrations it reduces appetite. It also promotes growth hormone secretion by the pituitary. When you loose weight your body produces more ghrelin which increases your appetite. Not really sure about how carb refeeds effect the levels but i assume it may reset it to lower concentrations.

Dont know how this relates to making the body more "anabolic" or if it answered your question but there you go.

[martinrogers]

Thanks Sendos.
Are you following a VLC diet with regular carb refeeds ?

The concensus amongst the high fat followers on this board seems to be that carb refeeds are unnecessary. The more people that I speak to the majority report that in practice fat loss slows, then stalls and only continues if your kcal balance is such as to cause muscle loss.
Hence they either prefer for are forced to introduce some level of regular carb refeed.

I've resisted this to date but may need to reconsider subject to the results of a further thorough caliper test.

[Gareth83]

All "top" diets including the anabolic / metabolic diet are filled with science to sell you the book.

Leptin is restored in the fed state ie. maintenance or surplus calories. This can be achieved through additional fats, carbs, whatever. The reason people like the anabolic / metabolic type diets is it gives them a bit of freedom and justification to eat foods that they wouldn't normally be allowed in the week.

The better diets would tell you to eat low GI unprocessed carbs for the carb-ups.

Although not sure what this has to do with immediate glycogen replenishment.

Some types of diet tell you to have the carb refeed PWO, others will tell you to have it away from training and to avoid saturated fats at teh same time.

Let's go back to something simple:

Calorie Maintenance + Resistance Training = Slow body composition change ie. add muscle, burn fat

Calorie Surplus + No training = Gain fat

Calorie Surplus (not too excessive) + Training = Muscle gain with minimum fat gain

and vice versa for calorie deficit depending on what size deficit.

This is why I favor calorie cycling on day to day, week to week basis.

[sendos]

I am on a relatively low carb diet around 75g a day and all of them come from vegetables and i intermittently fast. Personally since i've added in controlled carb ups on the weekend my fat loss has rocketed, but i'd say its more to do with the increase in calories then the carbs. during the week i'm on around 2000kcal a day (at 92kg thats below my mantinence by a hell of a lot) and on saturday i eat about 4000 and then sunday 3000. I've only been doing this a few weeks now and i can see a noticable change in appearance compared to when i was eating low calories with no cheat days.

Also on a side note, i also look noticably bigger and about 3-4lbs heavier by sunday evening, i assume this is due to glycogen supercompensation?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Quote

In the Anabolic diet my understanding is that DiPasquale argues in favour of a periodic (weekly) significant increase in carbs for a number of reasons:

1. this will 'stress' the body, making it subsequently more anabolic.
Yes, this will stop fat burning, presumably until the carbs have repleted glycogen and the rest of the carbs have been used for the recovery from the last workout/excess laid to fat. I think its claimed that this is far less likely to happened at this time (low glycogen, post workout, after 5/6 days of 30gms of carbs.

2. something to do with leptin and ghrelin levels, no idea what ...

I've reviewed this thread, don't believe I saw or understood that the 2nd point had been covered.

Does anybody have a clear explanation or more detail than the ebook
offers.

I have answered these points but on this thread:
http://forum.myprotein.co.uk/showthr...arb#post241718

Quote

If it (weekend carb-ups) is a 'stressful situation' surely the body will react as it does to most sources of stress and release cortisol? Isn't cortisol one of the great 'boogie men' of bodybuilders?

The release of GH as a 'survival mechanism' is usually as a means of making glucose from non-carb substrates in the absence of ingested carbs when blood glucose falls low - so I don't quite see why it would do this if you have just ingested a shed-load of carbs and your blood glucose is shooting through the roof! But I will continue to research this point.

Glycogen does not deplete fully in the absence of carbs. I have been low carbing for over 2 years and almost 'no carbing' for 6 weeks now and if my muscle glycogen stores had been depleted I would be in hospital right now not holding down a full-time job that requires I move and lift rather than push pens and paper behind a desk all day. This is quite clearly 'pants'!

Glycogen and water may 'fill out' muscle by increasing its non-contractile volume but it is purely aesthetic. It has no functionality with regard to strength, etc. Soft/flat muscles without this 'padding' is just an indication that you have not built any quality muscle tissue just ballooned what little you have with glycogen and water!

Glycogen will replete over 24 hours on a diet low in carbs because the body can make both glucose and glycogen from non-carb substrates once fat adapted.

Throwing in a high carb day every fourth day seems to be the best way to prevent you ever becoming fully fat adapted!

Muscle glycogen storage is fairly limited even when supercompensated (somewhere between 600-900g depending on the individual) I think you would be consuming far more carbohydrate than this on a high carb-up weekend which would probably end up as fat!

I think that answers your 1st point - I don't see how 'stressing' the body by having a high carb up period lasting up to three days would result in the body being more anabolic! But to address your 2nd point here:

Leptin is a hormone primarily secreted by the cells that make up body fat tissue (adipocytes). The more fat tissue you have on your body the more leptin you secrete. High levels of leptin serve to reduce appetite, which in turn reduces caloric intake and fat is burned to make up the 'short-fall' in calories. As the fat deposits are decreased less leptin is secreted. Low leptin levels increase appetite and caloric intake increases. Some of these extra calories will be stored as fat tissue. As fat tissue increases more leptin is secreted and the cycle repeats to form a regulatory 'feedback loop' that controls energy intake and expenditure and ultimately how much fat we carry on our body. I've yet to see any clear scientific evidence that carbohydrates specifically have any impact on this mechanism!

One of the biggest factors influencing leptin levels is lack of sleep!

Ghrelin levels spike before a meal and is associated with hunger. Postprandially, ghrelin levels drop and we feel satiated. Ghrelin, therefore, is associated with the same energy intake/output regulation mechanism as leptin (described above). Both leptin and ghrelin may have a complimentary relationship in this regard. Again, I've seen no scientific evidence that links carbohydrate intake specifically with the mediation of this mechanism!

[martinrogers]

Nu: Thanks, its a long thread containing a lot of info. and I was speed reading some of it...sorry I asked you to repeat yourself.

Sendos:Thanks for your reply.
I'd heard from a number of successful but completely amateur, natural (don't compete, but have very impressive physiques with BF% 10/12%) that they have a weekly high kcal day.

After being given the above info about the two points Nu explained, my first thought was can't you do this just by eating more protein and fat.
I think I'll try this one day/week, though my current kcals/day are much closer to my maintenance level than yours. I think if I ate 500kcals below my maintenance level, even on a high F,med P, vl C(50g.day) I'd be very hungry most of the time.
I thought extended periods of hunger were to be avoided b/c this raises cortisol levels ...
Is it the case that you should spend most of your week at maint-500kcals and then 1 or 2 days at maint+500 or +1000 ?
Presumably just try these and see what works for you ?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Quote

Nu: Thanks, its a long thread containing a lot of info. and I was speed reading some of it...sorry I asked you to repeat yourself.

Not at all. You wouldn't have seen it in this thread anyway as I had originally answered it in a totally different thread!