Against Glycogen Repletion...

[AlexTemper]

It's been a while since I've joined in on this thread as I've been away playing around with different protocols and have settled on this in terms of workout replenishment.

This sort of is and isn't relevant to this thread.

No carbs pre workout, a mix of EAA's/BCAA's in around 200ml Apple juice and 500ml ish water and 5g WMS post workout.

There is whey either pre and post with leucine being the other main amino present.

[Gareth83]

a little discussion between Art De Vany and Charles Staley:

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Charles: It's within parameters. One practice that a lot of people listening to this call have, that you've spoken out against, is the whole idea of having a post-workout shake. I'd love for you to elaborate on that a little bit. Obviously, the theory behind this is you're replenishing the muscle that loss glycogen. There's different theories about this, whether you take protein or protein and carb, and so forth. But what is your approach for guys who are lifting, post-workout?

Art: I think the replenishment, you will replenish more readily. But the problem is 2 things happen: you're taking in foods that create an insulin spike, so that shuts down the growth hormone response that you induced in your workout. That's very important.

Insulin is basically antagonistic to growth hormone. So, the high glycemic load, the protein shake, even protein elicits an insulin response. So, you're shutting down one of the adaptive hormones that's intending to increase through the workout, and that's growth hormones.

The other thing is that you're shutting down gene expression, because muscle gene expression occurs in response to signals you've created. One is the intensity of the workout and then mitogen-activated protein kinases send signals to the muscles to begin rebuilding. And 2, that gene expression takes place best in a glycogen-depleted muscle.

So, if you replenish the glycogen immediately or quickly, you shut down gene expression that's remodeling the muscle that you intended to train.

Charles: You're aware that you're the only person out there talking about this subject, right? Really! I?ve just never heard this from anybody else out there. I'm well-versed in all of the thinkers in this field, so very interesting.

Art: Again, gene expression is so much. And it's all an acute expression. It doesn't go on indefinitely, because the glycogen eventually remodels or repletes in the muscle. But you do that by burning fat and other substrates. So, why put that stuff in there.

Charles: So, unless I'm misreading you, you think that insulin spikes are not worth the down-side in any context. Is that right?

Art: I really don't. All of the hormones tend to be released in a rather pulsing fashion, in a spiky fashion. Insulin spikes, particularly large ones, kill more receptors or damage or downturn or down-regulate receptor sensitivity more than does a lower but chronic amount. It's like life is built up with lots of shocks, and the big shocks will be the huge print on your genetic composition and your gene expression and on your hormone profiles and the sensitivities to those hormones.

So, for example, a transitory shock of insulin after a Thanksgiving meal, followed by a good dessert and maybe preceded by wine and followed by a liquor, that mark's left on your metabolism for a very long time.

Charles: Really? Very interesting. I've never heard it put that way.

Art: It's like we know now that your worst sunburn is the one that's most likely to give you skin cancer.

Charles: That's true. That's true.

[jules]

dont subscribe to the sunburn theory- after living in australia for a number of years and seeing how they publicise the risks so much, i was amazed to learnt that the greatest incidences in skin cancer:
in men- was ears and neck
in women- ankles and calves

all the places we dont really consider putting cream on, when we have garments on.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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It's been a while since I've joined in on this thread as I've been away playing around with different protocols and have settled on this in terms of workout replenishment.

This sort of is and isn't relevant to this thread.

No carbs pre workout, a mix of EAA's/BCAA's in around 200ml Apple juice and 500ml ish water and 5g WMS post workout.

There is whey either pre and post with leucine being the other main amino present.

Hi Alex,

Nice to see you jumping back into this thread!

How are you finding the lack of pre-workout carbs? Does it affect the quality of your workouts significantly?

Depending on the type, a 200 ml serving of apple juice contains 23.75g of sugar (probably a fairly even mix of glucose and fructose, which are low molecular weight (LMW) carbs compared to high molecular weight (HMW) of WMS). As the point of WMS being a HMW carb is that it has a low osmolality (hypotonic) and passes through the stomach wall more rapidly than the hypertonic LMW sugars. Do you find having WMS in a solution of apple juice counteracts this 'benefit' of WMS?

In any case, do you find this repletes glycogen faster/to a greater degree than not having any PWO carbs? How would you assess that without being able to directly measure the glycogen content of the muscles?

I'm not being critical, I'm just interested to know what your experiences have been with this experimentation on pre and post workout protocols and what your thoughts are on how they affect energy, workouts, recovery and muscle growth.

[AlexTemper]

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Hi Alex,

Nice to see you jumping back into this thread!

How are you finding the lack of pre-workout carbs? Does it affect the quality of your workouts significantly?

I've not been a big fan of pre workout carbs so haven't used these for a long time but no, I've never found it took away the quality of a workout compared to say using 20g Dextrose pre workout.

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Depending on the type, a 200 ml serving of apple juice contains 23.75g of sugar (probably a fairly even mix of glucose and fructose, which are low molecular weight (LMW) carbs compared to high molecular weight (HMW) of WMS). As the point of WMS being a HMW carb is that it has a low osmolality (hypotonic) and passes through the stomach wall more rapidly than the hypertonic LMW sugars. Do you find having WMS in a solution of apple juice counteracts this 'benefit' of WMS?

WMS is a seperate in take to apple juice. I'll aim to finish the during workout drink around 3/4 of the way through and then my post workout shake will contain the minimal WMS.

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In any case, do you find this repletes glycogen faster/to a greater degree than not having any PWO carbs? How would you assess that without being able to directly measure the glycogen content of the muscles?


I'm not being critical, I'm just interested to know what your experiences have been with this experimentation on pre and post workout protocols and what your thoughts are on how they affect energy, workouts, recovery and muscle growth.

Given the apple juice during the workout I'd say there's more than a good chance the the WMS is redundant in terms of Glycogen Replenishment, however I'm hopefully that it may shuttle the other supplements in my post workout shake more quickly then it it were absent. Hence really the small token amount.

The use of apple juice and water was mainly to mask the taste of EAA's/BCAA's as they weren't tasting too good in water and to act as a homemade isotonic (add electrolytes and we're there) and again there's some evidence to support it helps uptake/absorption of the amino's.

As a side effect my energy levels through sessions close to 2 hours whether it be weights or weights and cardio were greatly improved. I can maintain increased intensity and push harder on a daily basis and experience very little muscle fatigue or aches.

I wouldn't put this down to simply 200ml Apple juice as I think the Amino's play a big part here, but I think the combination in it's totality certainly has.

[hailtotheking]

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a little discussion between Art De Vany and Charles Staley:

Gaz, where the link for this?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Thanks for reporting back, Alex. Very interesting.

I hadn't twigged that the WMS was taken separately to the apple juice/water/AA combo - my apologies!

[Gareth83]

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Gaz, where the link for this?

http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=1373291

Berardi has a few responses regarding the PWO nutrition and throws in some "evidence" in favor of immediate PWO nutrition and questions Art's integrity due to lack of research to back his theory.

However the study Berardi uses is manipulated to his advantage, the study also shows testosterone is lowered in the supplement group but Berardi doesn't mention this. he also fails to mention the supplement group were also consuming more than double daily calories.

Someone else questions Berardi's theory on fats and carbs combined having lack of research, yet he seems to avoid this.

Take everything with a pinch of salt

[JohnC]

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dont subscribe to the sunburn theory- after living in australia for a number of years and seeing how they publicise the risks so much, i was amazed to learnt that the greatest incidences in skin cancer:
in men- was ears and neck
in women- ankles and calves

all the places we dont really consider putting cream on, when we have garments on.

Which sunburn theory?

[Gareth83]

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Which sunburn theory?

going very off topic now, take a look here:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feat...castleman.html