Against Glycogen Repletion...

[Donjman]

You know i can't thank the people contributing to this thread enough btw.

Extra thankyou to Nu who just responds to my constant annoying posts.

[AlexTemper]

So, another update...

This time, reduced carbs intra workout to around 10g from 20g with amino's and no carbs post workout from having 6g-10g WSM.

Differences after 2 weeks? Nothing at all, positive or negative.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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So, another update...

This time, reduced carbs intra workout to around 10g from 20g with amino's and no carbs post workout from having 6g-10g WSM.

Differences after 2 weeks? Nothing at all, positive or negative.

So that would seem to indicate (to me) that carbs around workouts don't have any particular added benefit (?)!

[AlexTemper]

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So that would seem to indicate (to me) that carbs around workouts don't have any particular added benefit (?)!

Certainly from an energy point of view through a workout and in terms of my recovery training 5 days straight.

I'm still convinced that a small token amount will aid shuttling of my amino's than if I used plain water.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Certainly from an energy point of view through a workout and in terms of my recovery training 5 days straight.

I'm still convinced that a small token amount will aid shuttling of my amino's than if I used plain water.

No arguments from me on that score - I'm just amazed you've taken it this far (as a skeptic, if I recall correctly?) and reported it honestly - you could have easily said you'd tried it and you felt like c**p though the entire workout just to show me up! But you didn't and I take my hat off to you!

[AlexTemper]

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No arguments from me on that score - I'm just amazed you've taken it this far (as a skeptic, if I recall correctly?) and reported it honestly - you could have easily said you'd tried it and you felt like c**p though the entire workout just to show me up! But you didn't and I take my hat off to you!

I could of done but then scoring points over one another isn't helpfull for everyone else following this thread and wanting to gain a better understanding.

Also to better ones self, you have to have the ability to take a step back sometimes and look at things objectionally, even if you're in initial disagreement with the theory/opinion.

It wasn't initially planned to take away post workout but after coming back from holiday I realised after a week of training that I'd forgotten to add any carbs in so just carried it through as I hadn't noticed, just to see what would happen over more time.

With the Intra, I simply had ran out of juice so used smoothie, but less as it's thicker and pretty much stayed that way, as again, there were no negative effects, although this was to be a planned reduction anyway.

Seeing as I've be training close to 2 hours with the majority of my sessions at times, it's a fairly good indicator that very little carbs are required around this time.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Are you inclined to take it any further? Like zero carbs around workouts - even for a limited experimental period?

Actually, you have amazed me...I would have said a two hour workout sustained on minimal carbs would have been wishful thinking, which is why I've always maintained it is better to go for less volume on a low carb protocol. But if you can still slog it out for two hours (and on five consecutive days of the week?) without the usual amount of carbs, maybe I need to revise my thinking about just what is feasible?

[AlexTemper]

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Are you inclined to take it any further? Like zero carbs around workouts - even for a limited experimental period?

Actually, you have amazed me...I would have said a two hour workout sustained on minimal carbs would have been wishful thinking, which is why I've always maintained it is better to go for less volume on a low carb protocol. But if you can still slog it out for two hours (and on five consecutive days of the week?) without the usual amount of carbs, maybe I need to revise my thinking about just what is feasible?

I'm probably going to try out amino's in just water, so no carbs, for a 3 week period from monday with no post workout carbs. I don't use pre workout carbd as you know from previous posts.

I think the amino's play a pretty important role, more so than the carbs, as we know they register relatively high on II. This more be relevant, or possibly not but again I'm willing to bet it's part of the reason.

Also, bare in mind I'm very used to training like this so my body will be well adapted. Also I didn't used to use any Intra workout nutrition at all, just plain water, but did use post workout carbs, so again I'm probably adapted.

But, regardless of adaption, I can still train like I do week in, week out with no ill effects, still gain strength and mass, no deload weeks and probably upto 5 month stretches before forced time off for holidays.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Looking forward to your report on the aminos in water and no carbs in 3 weeks time - should be interesting!

[hailtotheking]

I have just noticed on Mauro DiPasquales site there are quite a good selection of free articles (unfortunately always conclusing in some promotional hype for his products, a bit like t-nation). There's quite a good article on the myth of requiring PWO carbs entitled 'Post Exercise Carbohydrates maybe Counter Productive':

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Post Exercise Carbohydrates May Be Counter-Productive
At this time the consensus in the literature is that the use of a balanced amino acid mixture along with glucose or high glycemic carbohydrates taken immediately after exercise and then again a short time later would seem to optimize the immediate anabolic effects of exercise.1
There’s no doubt that the use of the individual and combinations of amino acids both before, during and after exercise has significant short term effects on protein synthesis and the exercise and post exercise hormonal milieu. However, very little research has been done on the long term benefits or drawbacks on body composition and performance of using post exercise carbohydrate intake.
However, a recent study assessed the need for co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein on post-exercise muscle protein synthesis.2 The results of the study showed that the use of a protein hydrolysate alone was enough to increase protein synthesis after exercise and that the addition of carbohydrates did not further increase protein synthesis.
Not only is the use of post exercise carbohydrates non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by protein intake after exercise, it can actually be counter productive.
There is no doubt that the timing protein nutrition after exercise is crucial for increasing skeletal muscle protein synthesis and an overall net balance.3 Exercise provides an adaptive response so that the body is able to make use of any nutrition supplied post exercise.
Nutrient intake on its own provides a storage response so that if one is fed or receives an infusion of mixed amino acids after a fasted period, protein synthesis increases, whereas protein breakdown remains the same or decreases slightly, which is different from the response after exercise.
Without nutrient intake after exercise protein synthesis and protein breakdown are increased but net balance does not become positive as it does after amino acid intake after fasting. Because of the exercise stimulus, when amino acids are provided after exercise protein synthesis increases more than that after exercise or AA feeding alone, and protein breakdown remains similar to exercise without feeding. Thus the provision of AA enhances protein synthesis and leads to a positive net protein balance and an overall increase in protein accretion.4
In addition, while the increase in protein synthesis after feeding is a transient storage phenomenon, physical exercise stimulates a longer-term adaptive response. Providing nutrition after physical activity takes advantage of the anabolic signaling pathways that physical activity has initiated by providing amino acid building blocks and energy for protein synthesis.
Glycogen compensation and super compensation (after glycogen depleting exercise) after exercise requires a substantial carbohydrate load that results in a quick and large increase in glycogen levels in both liver and skeletal muscles. Once the stores are full, or even super full, the stimulus declines dramatically. However, if no carbohydrates are given post exercise the muscle will maintain a capacity to full compensate or supercompensate glycogen until enough carbs are either available through the diet or by gluconeogenesis to fill the glycogen stores as much as possible.5
Because of the over emphasis placed on maintaining glycogen stores to maximize exercise performance, much of the research has centered around the effects of post exercise carbs, and post exercise carbs combined with protein,6 and the effects these have on glucose transportes (GLUT1, GLUT2, GLUT4), glucose metabolism, including levels of hexokinase and glycogen synthase, and insulin,7,8 there’s not much out there dealing with just the use of protein and fat after exercise.
The usual advice is that carbs, with some protein thrown in, are a necessary part of post exercise nutrition regardless of diet that you’re following, including a low carb diet.9,10 However, that’s not true. In fact the use of carbs post training can be counter productive and eliminating post training carbs can have added anabolic and fat burning effects.
That’s because the intake of carbs after exercise blunts the post exercise insulin sensitivity. That means that once muscle has loaded up on glycogen, which it does pretty quickly on carbs, insulin sensitivity decreases dramatically.
As you know this statement runs counter to present thinking and research about post exercise nutrition although we’ve mentioned that one recent study showing that carbohydrate intake after exercise is non contributory to the increase in protein synthesis brought about by the use of a protein hydrolysate post exercise.
However, the study did not go as far as to state that the use of carbohydrates can actually be counter productive. As such, let’s take it step by step so that I can make my reasons for the above statements clear and easier to understand.
First of all it’s well known that a single session of exercise increases insulin sensitivity for hours and even days.11,12
It’s also known that a bout of resistance exercise results in a significant decrease in glycogen and that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen.13
Glucose uptake and glycogen synthesis are enhanced in the presence of insulin following an acute exercise bout that lowers the muscle glycogen concentration and activates glycogen synthase.14,15
Muscle glycogen concentration dictates much of this acute increase in insulin sensitivity after exercise.16 Therefore, an increased availability of dietary carbohydrate in the hours after exercise and the resultant increase in muscle glycogen resynthesis reverses the exercise-induced increase in insulin sensitivity.17
Along with glucose uptake, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis also increase. As well, the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel also rises after exercise since glycogen resynthesis takes priority to the use of glucose for aerobic energy.
However, as liver and muscle glycogen levels get replenished, insulin sensitivity decreases, as does amino acid uptake, protein synthesis and the use of fatty acids as a primary fuel.
By increasing insulin levels and not providing carbs you shunt your body’s metabolism to the use of more fatty acids for energy while at the same time keeping muscle glycogen levels below saturation and amino acid influx and protein synthesis elevated for a prolonged period of time post exercise.
This increased capacity for glycogen synthesis, and everything that goes with it, can persist for several days if the muscle glycogen concentration is maintained below normal levels by carbohydrate restriction. By keeping carbs low and protein and energy high after training, you can increase protein synthesis over a prolonged period of time and get long term anabolic effect.18
As well, the type of protein used post exercise can have an effect on glycogen levels and thus the anabolic stimulus. For example it’s been shown that a fast protein, such as whey protein, leads to increased glycogen levels over slow proteins such as casein.19
In the long run, the optimal protein for increasing protein synthesis, decreasing catabolism and increasing muscle accretion is a blend of slow and fast proteins.