Against Glycogen Repletion...

[Gareth83]

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Oh, another reason why I think bodybuilding-style dieting is bad for this type of problem - besides high carb eating - is the insistance on eating several small meals throughout the day. While it does even out insulin spikes, you are swapping one kind of excess for another! Instead of having three huge insulin spikes, which then clear the system between meals, you have a rapid succession of smaller spikes which never quite clear the system leaving you awash with insulin for most of the day. The consequence of having insulin semi-permanently in the system is that you are more likely to develop insulin resistance/reduce insulin sensitivity. With the other method, you are likely to have reactive hypoglycaemia which leaves you feeling tired and lethargic and probaly hunting down the nearest sugary/starchy snack!

That's a very interesting point NU. So it could actually be more beneficial to have one humongous meal during the day providing you don't have access to loads of sugary foods within the kitchen cupboards ;-)

[Gareth83]

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simon you dont need dextrose you need a carbohydrate. This is one of the resons I just use oats, there's no real need for high GI carbs PWO full stop.

Term once mentioned cave-men would replenisg glycogen stores by eating liver for example. So no need for carbs full stop really.
Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Am I reading this correctly, is this suggesting there is no advantage in consuming carbs pre workout?? In fact I've always noted more energy during a workout or football session when only consuming protein/fats before hand.
Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure

questions in red

[hailtotheking]

The thing i hate about aports nutrition is for every study that supports one feeding protocol, another comes along and contradicts it TBH, you have to play around with different approaches to see what works best for you. I have done v. low carb / high fat diets (anabolic diet) before, and i felt fine whilst i wasnt training hard, and i probably could have lived with that diet for quite some time if i wasnt training hard, but the moment i tried to ramp up the intensity in the gym, it just didnt happen. On the other side of things, on a high carb / low fat diet i got the strongest i had ever been, but i also got the fattest i had been in a long time. Carb cycling does it for me.

BTW nu, do actually do any gym work? No offense mate, but i would love to see how hard you can train on your type of diet. If you do, and your diet works for you in the gym environment, then i stand corrected.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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That's a very interesting point NU. So it could actually be more beneficial to have one humongous meal during the day providing you don't have access to loads of sugary foods within the kitchen cupboards ;-)

This is, in fact, the essence of another 'evolutionarily inspired' dietary protocol called 'The Warrior Diet' espoused by one Ori Hofmekler. He maintains that our ancient hunter-gatherer ancestors would have hunted during the day [hence most activity on empty stomach/glycogen depleted], then one big feast during the evening after the hunt. I believe Sir Cliff Richard has followed this eating pattern for many years! There is also a website called Humana Natura [just google the name!] which also looks at diet and fitness from an evolutionary perspective and says pretty much the same - our paleolithic ancestors would have had a famine/feast dietary pattern [probably not eating a huge feast every day]. Indeed this is the explanation of why we have the so-called 'thrifty gene' which means that when we do have a plentiful supply of food and eat it to excess we pile on the pounds of fat! This is also the reason why CR or 'caloric restriction' is also becoming popular as research seems to indicate that it prolongs life and helps to prevent degenerative diseases, being a way of keeping insulin levels rock bottom. En masse, all this research/theories seem to best explain the dietary mess that we in the west seem to find ourselves in [due to high carb feast/feast]!

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The thing i hate about aports nutrition is for every study that supports one feeding protocol, another comes along and contradicts it TBH, you have to play around with different approaches to see what works best for you. I have done v. low carb / high fat diets (anabolic diet) before, and i felt fine whilst i wasnt training hard, and i probably could have lived with that diet for quite some time if i wasnt training hard, but the moment i tried to ramp up the intensity in the gym, it just didnt happen. On the other side of things, on a high carb / low fat diet i got the strongest i had ever been, but i also got the fattest i had been in a long time. Carb cycling does it for me.

BTW nu, do actually do any gym work? No offense mate, but i would love to see how hard you can train on your type of diet. If you do, and your diet works for you in the gym environment, then i stand corrected.

I don't train because having been there and done that [and worn the T-shirt!] for eight years I have no wish to go back to it. I've read enough to realize it is not necessarily the most productive or healthy way to increase fitness, etc. However, I have a fairly active job with some heavy lifting and carrying involved and have no problems with performance and recovery or with energy levels and alertness overall. In your case, if you followed the 'anabolic diet' to the letter you were not really using the same protocol that I am discussing, as the research clearly states you will not be able to lift heavy weights if you fall back on high carb days [even once per week] as it takes 2-4 weeks [on VL carb] to make the metabolic shift to being a fat burner rather than a sugar burner and from then on you need to stay off high carbs for it to continue [no carb ups]. It would seem you are comparing apples with oranges as the anabolic diet and a permanent high fat/low carb diet are not the same thing!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

KP: I've just been reading some of your posts in threads on The Greay Area forum...am I right in deducing that you have used/do use steroids?

If I am, are you aware that steroids can alter carbohydrate metabolism and induce the onset of diabetes? Insulin resistance is the early warning sign of the onset of diabetes type II!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Simon M, do we even know if we have evolved geneticaly that much? We've certainly evolved culturaly and techonlogicaly. But genetically are we not the same. I think thats the basis of Art De Vaney's theorys in the first post. that we are genetically indistinguisable from our ancestors.

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Maybe deserves an off topic thread?

I believe we have trod this ground before in another thread/forum [though I can't remember which!] however, as a brief response to both of your questions I offer this snippet from good old wikipedia:

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Current research establishes that human beings are highly genetically homogenous, meaning that the DNA of individual **** sapiens is more alike than usual for most species, a result of their relatively recent evolution, or maybe because the Toba catastrophe theory. Distinctive genetic characteristics have arisen, however, primarily as the result of small groups of people moving into new environmental circumstances. Such small groups are initially highly inbred, allowing the relatively rapid transmission of traits favorable to the new environment. These adapted traits are a very small component of the **** sapiens genome and include such outward "racial" characteristics as skin color and nose form in addition to internal characteristics such as the ability to breathe more efficiently in high altitudes.

Bear in mind that **** sapiens [more correctly, **** sapiens sapiens] or 'modern man' has been around for about 120,000 years. The earliest signs of agriculture [and only around the shores of the sea of Galilee] is 10-11,000 years ago, so still only the latter twelfth of **** sapiens existence on earth. So, as I originally said, environmental adaptations can and do occur but they are usually superficial in nature and do not constitute a significant proportion of the human genome as a whole.

[MartinM]

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BTW nu, do actually do any gym work? No offense mate, but i would love to see how hard you can train on your type of diet. If you do, and your diet works for you in the gym environment, then i stand corrected.

I do also find this makes it hard to take some of your posts serioiusly..... apologies for that, but when you simply base your posts on science that is fine, but when talking about real life experiences its a whole other story. I get told time and time again by the 'older more 'wise' members here this all the time [snore]

The idea that it would take a FULL month to get the adaptations to a low carb diet are dubious too.....

Somewhere in these posts someone said there are " No studies with high fat diet for more than 1-2 weeks?!?! Thats again completely not true

[kp1512]

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I do also find this makes it hard to take some of your posts serioiusly..... apologies for that, but when you simply base your posts on science that is fine, but when talking about real life experiences its a whole other story. I get told time and time again by the 'older more 'wise' members here this all the time [snore]

The idea that it would take a FULL month to get the adaptations to a low carb diet are dubious too.....

Somewhere in these posts someone said there are " No studies with high fat diet for more than 1-2 weeks?!?! Thats again completely not true

Martin

I hear what you are saying...and walking the walk and talking the talk are different things on the Internet. A personal bug bear of mine when ANYONE gives advice on things yet havent done it themselves! Its easy talking about how to get to say a 250kg DL..but sheeesh I tell you....GETTING THERE and doing it yourself is another kettle of fish.

This isnt aimed at NU btw, but Id agree NU...I do like your posts and alot of the stuff you say with the science...but have you got any pics or stats on your previous level of development? There is an argument WHY that has anything to do with it, but BB \WL etc is one area where I think you get far more credibility if you really have worn the tshirt and paid your dues...especially in the world of the Interweb.

Fair play to you if you dont workout, or havent attained a somewhat higher level of conditioning, but its always good to know what the person has done thats giving the advice (No offence meant here buddy)

KP

[kp1512]

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KP: I've just been reading some of your posts in threads on The Greay Area forum...am I right in deducing that you have used/do use steroids?

If I am, are you aware that steroids can alter carbohydrate metabolism and induce the onset of diabetes? Insulin resistance is the early warning sign of the onset of diabetes type II!

Yes I have....now 3 years back. Havent taken anything since.

And yes I am aware that IR is a sign of T11 diabetes. Hence why I am a concerned little soul. BUT, Diabetes runs in my family albeit in the previous generation...and Id strongly suspect that by the tme I reach 40-45 I will more than likely be Diabetic TII. But Who knows!

However, my IR has been with me since I can remember...over 10 years definately. Reducing the chances of it, are all around diet, not carrying too much fat, changing eating habits, etc etc. All this I am slowing doing. But I see it like this, if its in my genes that Ill get it, Ill get it. If not, happy days.

Id also say that being IR is extremely common in my race, and I know a fair few people who do suffer from this, and havent gone on to develop diabetes....luck of the draw mate. But interestingly enough, Im sure you are aware of Syndrome X? Well its far more common globbaly now.....and many who dont know they have it, HAVE IT.

This is another reason why I generally dont like to yo yo by BG and Insulin levels.....but you cant have ya cake and eat it. :-)

[Gareth83]

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Id also say that being IR is extremely common in my race, and I know a fair few people who do suffer from this, and havent gone on to develop diabetes

what race are you?