Against Glycogen Repletion...

[ATZ]

The reason fat is recommended to be limited by Martin et al is because oxidation (of fat) is blunted by the higher carb intake on training days. So ingesting too much dietary fat results in it being stored directly as body fat. Whilst carbs in the majority get stored as glycogen (which is benefical for anaboic signalling) unless you consume a stupidly high amount leading to de novo lipogenesis - coversion of carbs to fat.

Obviously this is assuming protein is adequate.

[James]

Brillant, thanks to both of you. ATZ confirms my theory of fat oxidation. So people who bulk using, say for instance, the zone diet ratios are going to put on more fat mass whilst in surplus calories? Now the question stands, would the same 'fat gains' occur in someone who followed a more moderate approach for fats, e.g. 120-150g carbs on workout days to keep glycogen adapted fully, and raising fats to make the difference. I'm just interested in varying approaches and supposed fat gain.

[hailtotheking]

Actually, the fat intake on the Zone Diet is pretty low, because the overall diet is low in calories, and the recommendation for fat is about 0.4 grams from fat for every gram of protein.

In theory, it makes sense not to eat alot of fat on hypercaloric days, but in reality i find it makes those days unbearable from diet perspective. Considering i train 3-4 days a week and those are my hypercaloric days, that means 3-4 days a week i would have to eat the most plain boring diet ever. What i have found works ok on hypercaloric days is to eat a reasonable amount of fat with my break-fast meal and my afternoon snack, and then just limit it for the evening PWO meal.

[James]

Agree with you on diet. I'm thinking of going back to good old oats and whey shakes atop of my usual diet to hit the target whilst keeping fat low.

Anyway, thanks for the info, it's a shame (in a way) that it confirmed by thoughts/knowledge on the area.

[Gareth83]

I'm not sure how it has 'confirmed' your thoughts in anyway? Scientific research and studies would back up any thoughts, the last few posts have been based on ideas and theory. In the real world things don't happen in snapshots of time. Things such as muscle growth or fat loss happen over several days not just a few hours PWO or whatever other studies look at.

Look at the bigger picture

[Gareth83]

not sure if this one has been posted:

Quote

Abstract

Exercise induces an increase in GLUT4 in skeletal muscle with a proportional increase in glucose transport capacity. This adaptation results in enhanced glycogen accumulation, i.e., "supercompensation," in response to carbohydrate feeding after glycogen-depleting exercise. The increase in GLUT4 reverses within 40 h after exercise in carbohydrate-fed rats. The purpose of this study was to determine whether prevention of skeletal muscle glycogen supercompensation after exercise results in maintenance of the increases in GLUT4 and the capacity for glycogen supercompensation. Rats were exercised by means of three daily bouts of swimming. GLUT4 mRNA was increased approximately 3-fold and GLUT4 protein was increased approximately 2-fold 18 h in epitrochlearis muscle after exercise. These increases in GLUT4 mRNA and protein reversed completely within 42 h after exercise in rats fed a high-carbohydrate diet. In contrast, the increases in GLUT4 protein, insulin-stimulated glucose transport, and increased capacity for glycogen supercompensation persisted unchanged for 66 h in rats fed a carbohydrate-free diet that prevented glycogen supercompensation after exercise. GLUT4 mRNA was still elevated at 42 h but had returned to baseline by 66 h after exercise in rats fed the carbohydrate-free diet. Glycogen-depleted rats fed carbohydrate 66 h after exercise underwent muscle glycogen supercompensation with concomitant reversal of the increase in GLUT4. These findings provide evidence that prevention of glycogen supercompensation after exercise results in persistence of exercise-induced increases in GLUT4 protein and enhanced capacity for glycogen supercompensation.

Prevention of glycogen supercompensation prolongs ... [Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003] - PubMed result