Against Glycogen Repletion...

[NU_nutrition_TS]

...without refeeding! Some interesting snippets from an article reviewing recent scientific studies:

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Post-exercise glycogen repletion in the absence of
food intake
One extreme dietary condition that would be
expected to impair the synthesis of muscle glycogen
during recovery from exercise is the absence of
food. Is it possible for our muscles to re-build at
least part of their glycogen stores after exercise if
food is not available? This is a situation likely to
have had a major impact on the survival of our
ancestors who, as a result of their hunter-gatherers
life-style, were at increased risks of experiencing
regular episodes of prolonged fast. This notion that
skeletal muscles might have the capacity to replenish
their glycogen independently of food intake is not a
novel one as it was central to the work of the Nobel
Laureat, Otto Meyerhof, who, nearly a hundred
years ago, provided evidence, based on the use of
isolated frog muscle preparations, that skeletal
muscles have such a capacity (Fournier et al., 2002).
It is only over the past 30 years, however, that
experiments have been performed in humans and a
wide range of animal species to establish if this is
also the case in intact animals. The general
consensus is that, after exercise, skeletal muscles in
humans have the capacity to replenish at least part of
their glycogen stores without food intake,
irrespective of whether they are recovering from
prolonged aerobic exercise (Hultman and
Bergstrom, 1967; Maehlum et al., 1978) or from
high intensity exercise (Hermansen and Vaage,
1977; Peters-Futre et al., 1987; Astrand et al., 1986;
Bangsbo et al., 1991, 1997; Fairchild et al., 2003).
Moreover, we have also shown that this resynthesis
occurs across all muscle fiber types (Fairchild et al.
2003).

Regulation of post-exercise glycogen repletion in
the absence of food intake
It is noteworthy that under conditions expected to be
highly unfavourable to glycogen synthesis following
high intensity exercise, such as food absence or
active recovery, the rates of muscle glycogen
synthesis in humans and rats are among the highest
reported in the literature (Pascoe and Gladden, 1996;
Nikolovski et al, 1996; Fairchild et al., 2003).

In conclusion, during recovery from exercise, it is
possible for skeletal muscles to replenish their
glycogen stores under conditions expected to be
highly unfavourable to glycogen synthesis such as
fasting or active recovery. The rates of muscle
glycogen synthesis can be very high under these
conditions, most probably because of the acute
activation of glucose transport and glycogen
synthase and inhibition of glycogen phosphorylase.
This capacity of skeletal muscles to replenish their
glycogen stores under extreme conditions is clearly
advantageous as it allows muscles to maintain
adequate levels of glycogen stores for fight or flight
responses.

POST-EXERCISE MUSCLE GLYCOGEN REPLETION IN THE EXTREME: EFFECT OF FOOD ABSENCE AND ACTIVE RECOVERY
Paul A. Fournier, Timothy J. Fairchild, Luis D. Ferreira and Lambert Bräu

School of Human Movement and Exercise Science, University of Western Australia, Crawley, WA, 6009, Australia

International Society of Sports Nutrition Symposium, June 18-19, 2005, Las Vegas NV, USA - Macronutrient Utilization During Exercise: Implications For Performance And Supplementation

[jules]

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/28

use that link- the Il-6 is was referring to was cytokine as per the study
is there no end to Nu's passion to uncover the truth
once again hats off, it is said damn you cant train, but you can research!

[bulletproof]

ditching the post workout potion will also save £££

[Gareth83]

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once again hats off, it is said damn you cant train, but you can research!

true true

[kp1512]

Again Nu, distinction for finding all this data and I can only be amazed that you do

But has anyone tried this!....Those that are following the "old" way or rather the "do it this way" method of consuming PWO carbs et all...have they tried this way?....I think if a few did, they easily be able to determine if this theory and some, but limited, real world research data, holds value in reality? Even in as little as period of 4 weeks, one could determine how much water this holds true!....by comparing there previous level of gain \ muscle \ feel to one experienced whilst following what this data suggests?....

Not taking anything away from what you bring to the table.....but hell.....there needs to be some real world results here......then maybe the hi-5 and tap on the back can definately ensue!.....

[bulletproof]

i'm currently trying this method since monday. i am on a cut though, doing high intensity brief workouts. so my results won't be comparable to someone trying this on a bulk. i am however consuming a scoop of MPC and one of WPC post workout with water - i must say my energy levels post workout and for the hours after have felt much more sustained and comfortable than when i consumed carbs PWO. also, i felt less hungry than i normally do by the time i get home. early days yet, but i'm starting to think i prefer this method of post workout replenishment, or lack of.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Quote

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/28

use that link- the Il-6 is was referring to was cytokine as per the study
is there no end to Nu's passion to uncover the truth
once again hats off, it is said damn you cant train, but you can research!

Thanks Jules...If disagreements and contrary viewpoints/evidence can point me in the direction of more pertinent research and expand my knowledge, then I think it is all to the good...a win/win situation for all!

Quote

Again Nu, distinction for finding all this data and I can only be amazed that you do

But has anyone tried this!....Those that are following the "old" way or rather the "do it this way" method of consuming PWO carbs et all...have they tried this way?....I think if a few did, they easily be able to determine if this theory and some, but limited, real world research data, holds value in reality? Even in as little as period of 4 weeks, one could determine how much water this holds true!....by comparing there previous level of gain \ muscle \ feel to one experienced whilst following what this data suggests?....

Not taking anything away from what you bring to the table.....but hell.....there needs to be some real world results here......then maybe the hi-5 and tap on the back can definately ensue!.....

Of course, there are countless real-world examples...it's a question of 'do they make themselves known or are they quite happy to do what they do in obscurity?'. I've mentioned one good example already in this thread...Art De Vaney. He is seventy, eats this way, trains, is involved in various sports and from whom I first got all this info about avoiding glycogen replenishment! He has a website with pictures...very fit and active still at seventy....just look him up on Google!

[Duncan]

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Again Nu, distinction for finding all this data and I can only be amazed that you do

But has anyone tried this!....Those that are following the "old" way or rather the "do it this way" method of consuming PWO carbs et all...have they tried this way?....I think if a few did, they easily be able to determine if this theory and some, but limited, real world research data, holds value in reality? Even in as little as period of 4 weeks, one could determine how much water this holds true!....by comparing there previous level of gain \ muscle \ feel to one experienced whilst following what this data suggests?....

Not taking anything away from what you bring to the table.....but hell.....there needs to be some real world results here......then maybe the hi-5 and tap on the back can definately ensue!.....

Don't s'pose you've been reading my journal? It's been a long while since I updated it because after my cutting phase I started to feel like I was talking to myself, but there's evidence there to back up Nu's claims.

[kp1512]

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Don't s'pose you've been reading my journal? It's been a long while since I updated it because after my cutting phase I started to feel like I was talking to myself, but there's evidence there to back up Nu's claims.

No I havent but ill go look for it now.

Dont get me wrong, I dont not want to beleive or try this!

Myself and Nu have similar viewpoints on the whole Carb thing. Myself dont use carbs aside from PWO and maybe every odd morning....rest if from Protein and Fats.

I just feel that sometimes its easy to get in to the "dam this must be true lets hail it!" mindset of thinking without actually trying this fully with a few people, or more importantly on ones self.

I dont beleive 90% off the bull**** that gets spouted in the mainstream...and Im forever being ridiculed on my workout methods etc...yet I couldnt care...as I have first hand experience on what it can do to me and my physique. Now if something like this comes along, and it works....rest assured...ll be giving it a go.....but Im still having difficulting in the PWO thing...and as I always say....only way I can prove it...is do it on myself...

KP

[NU_nutrition_TS]

KP...I merely offer this off-the-wall stuff to provoke a little 'thinking outside the box'! I can't believe that I am reading stuff today that is just a rehash of the stuff I was reading in BB mags back in the seventies and eighties! I don't expect or want people to take my word for anything. The least I would hope is that it might inspire people to give it a go and evaluate it for themselves, rather than dismiss it out of hand because it conflicts with what they've read in a BB mag article or been told by a 'roidhead down the gym or someone studying sports science at uni!