New start....again

[Shicky]

Figure its best to give a brief history so here goes..

Started training with a clue just over a year ago, went from 76kg to 63kg in about 3months, then down further to 60.8kg. Part 2 was when i started to look at HST (Hypertrophy Specific Training.) Slightly further on, only about 2 weeks i went up to 64kg. However then got a lump on my nads which had to be lopped off, was pretty bed ridden etc for a while and back down to about 60.5kg. This happened towards the end of july and since then nothing has gone right, my 'umph' factor or whatever you might call it seems to be gone in the gym and i've had all sorts of niggles.

So now im about 64.5kg, haven't been gyming up much of late due to a groin injury and starting at uni etc but know i really need to get back into things.

Goal setting has always been turd as i dont really know what's realistic but on the whole I want to start training to bulk up. Problem 1 being i want to start back into rugby (having to change position due to poo weight ) so i'll have 3-4 cardio centred sessions a week. On top of this i'd like to do at least 3 weights sessions a week. Realistically though the rugby could be 2-3 times a week and i may drop it altogether depending how things go. Priority one is improving my size with rugby coming second.

Previously i've followed a high fat diet, protein at 1.5xmass in lbs and carbs very low 100-150g depending if workout day or not. Although i feel this is a great way to go if trying to drop BF on a cut, i think its difficult to grow on maybe.

So thats everything basically, would like some suggestions on what types of training regimes would be good for me in terms of gaining muscle and power. Chest development is a must for me as i STILL have some manboob left from being a fatty kid. Dunno how at under 13% BF (slightly more now im sure) but i am 5ft 7 which would explain a lot. But overall muscle gain is the key.

Diet wise i was also looking any recommendations, as i previously said my high fat diet was great but im not so convinced when it comes to bulking up, any suggestions gratefully received.

Oh and also i have a decent amount of supplements for when i get into my groove again. Creatine CEE, whey, milk concentrate, taurine, green tea.

So thanks for any help you can provide, oh and i think i forgot to mention, i did enjoy my brief spell of HST. However im not sure it's best for my situation where i need muscle, power and weight fast. Perhaps i will go back to it if i cant find anything more suited to my needs.

Thanks again, and sorry for the ramble!

[Marks1972]

I think a thing to note is that building your chest probably wont get rid of the moobs. I have some pretty good moob action going on but would say i have a pretty well developed chest, but i still have the fat around the chest (hopefully until i cut anyway)...if anything building my chest and made the moobs more prounounced.. at least now i look like ive had a boob job tho .

Im trying to gain at the mo and i just struggle to eat enough to get over my base calorie requirement, i find meal replacements are a key for me, they are also a pretty cheap way to get a good amount of protein and carbs in. Also i keep loads of nuts around me at work, brazil, cashews, almonds and have a handful of mixed with each meal.

[Orinoco]

Re: moobs

Read some advice given by Charles Poliquin for this very issue only recently....he said to to 'gorge' on cruciferous vegetables daily. I've also read elsewhere that eating about 4-5 oranges daily for breakfast is good practice as well. These foods have a pronounced anti-oestrogen effect when eaten daily in significant amounts.

One easy way to do this is buy either frozen mixed vegetables (carrot, peas, cauli, broccoli) and have 500 gms daily (only 200 cals) mixed with a good quality olive oil, or if palatability isn't key, then just get the frozen cauli/broccoli.

NOTE: good quality olive oil will be extra virgin and in a dark glass bottle. If it's not sold in a dark glass bottle don't buy it. A good oil will cost you around £7.

[Bean]

i think if you get the motivation the gains will follow, i lost mine awhile ago,
get some motivating video's Dorian Yates's "blood an guts", natural bb champs rob hope an vicky mcCann's "Arm Yourself" even Rocky!
here's some links i like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSN4X...elated&search=
kia greene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaQBp...elated&search=
(kia greene 2, best posing routines ive seen)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Iyz...&search=Arnold
(for the backing music alone, anybody know what this tunes called? id love to train to it lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx2Vc...elated&search=
(flex wheeler)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOaz1...elated&search=
(best of flex wheeler)

[Shicky]

Cheers for all the replies guys.

The chest development i think will go a little better for me mate, although i have moobs my BF, at least was quite low, below 13%. Its only my height that causes the problem. But aside from that when i bulked successfully last time, i noticed a tightening in my chest and i think further development could fix them and if not, im still building muscle which is a great plus point.

Thanks for the info orinoco, i hadn't heard of that before but im about to go read up on it all. More veg was something i needed to work into my diet for sure, pre-prep is the key as im a lazy **** when i come home knackered, being between homes sure as hell doesnt help on having the food i want too.

And ta for the vids Bean, will defo check them out. I know i need to get going like, and will get started, at least on form tomorrow for my compounds if nothing else. Im a great fan of the layne norton series on bodybuilding.com if you want to check that out. The key for me is progress, I know i could hit the gym religiously but i need to feel what im doing is right, correct form, proper pain next day etc. Then i feel like im really going somewhere, as well as seeing the scales go up.

What about your diets guys? As i said i have previously went with 1.5xmass lbs protein, high as possible on fats, with 100g-150g carbs depending if working out or not. I used to take 3k kcals on workout days and 2700kcal non. I found it didnt make me feel like i was growing as such, whats your intake? Any reasons why?

Also on the workout front, any regimes people would recommend following? I was previously on HST but want to try the more powerbuild oriented stuff 6 sets per exercise etc...at least i think i saw that. Again as previously said the key for me is chest/leg development and generally putting on muscle/weight for rugby.

I dunno if splits would interest me, but i'll certainly have a look. I was always of the opinion that only those going days side by side need splits.

Anyway thanks again and look forward to replies!

[health4ni]

Eat 5-7 meals a day. Eat good quality protein with each meal. And for you that means getting about 20-30g of protein with each meal.

Good quality protein is lean meat & fish.

Have a whey protein shake for breakfast to help get the protein in.

Eat Fish Oil: lots of it. 30-45ml/g per day. Take with food. Ideally whenever you eat (not post workout shake though).

Carbs: well, if you are trying to gain muscle mass you need to eat lots of carbs too. But again good quality carbs (not bread or pasta). Vegetables have carbs too, but you need to eat lost of them.

However, I'm a little confused. You say you're 13% Body Fat, but have moobs. From my experience that doesn't make sense. How do you get your Body Fat taken? I think you'll find that you might be higher. And in which case the goal has to be to get to 10% BF and THEN put on some muscle (you can do both both but the protocol behind each is slightly different).

You're not far from me I do believe; I may be able to help you out. Send me a PM and we can chat further.

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Re: moobs

Read some advice given by Charles Poliquin for this very issue only recently....he said to to 'gorge' on cruciferous vegetables daily.

Yeah basically Charles is saying to get your carbs from vegetables. You have to deserve your carbs. And only those under 10% Body Fat deserve their carbs (according to Poliquin).

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I've also read elsewhere that eating about 4-5 oranges daily for breakfast is good practice as well. These foods have a pronounced anti-oestrogen effect when eaten daily in significant amounts.

That's a lot of sugar to get. I wouldn't bother with that. Spinach is the best food for anti-oestrogen. Flax Seeds are also very good and even better are Flax Seed Hulls & Lignans. The supplement DIM is probably the best anti-oestrogen supplement. Green Tea caps are good too. Esp for Fat Loss.

[Shicky]

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Eat 5-7 meals a day. Eat good quality protein with each meal. And for you that means getting about 20-30g of protein with each meal.

Yup I eat 6 meals a day, in a 700/300kcal ratio (this would only be accurate for a workout day, i modify it for non)

Do you really go for 20g+ of protein per meal? I was always unsure of this i just knew you needed protein at decent levels throughout the day. For my 300kcal snacks I often just eat 40g of Brazil nuts or another type of nut which is only about 7g of protein but 280kcals. What do you do for the snack-type meals, just a shake?

Oh and I figure i'll stick with my current high fat diet and just make some adjustments, mainly getting more veg in.

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Eat Fish Oil: lots of it. 30-45ml/g per day. Take with food. Ideally whenever you eat (not post workout shake though).

Yea I take 6 fish oil caps a day and get at least 1 serving of fish per day, typically salmon or makerel to get my omega 3 hitting at least 10g per day.

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Carbs: well, if you are trying to gain muscle mass you need to eat lots of carbs too. But again good quality carbs (not bread or pasta). Vegetables have carbs too, but you need to eat lost of them.

Would you consider 150g workout, 100g non too low? The only way i get carbs in, is with porridge/milk in the morning, veg and small values from nuts for example. And finally from oats in my shake.

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However, I'm a little confused. You say you're 13% Body Fat, but have moobs. From my experience that doesn't make sense. How do you get your Body Fat taken? I think you'll find that you might be higher. And in which case the goal has to be to get to 10% BF and THEN put on some muscle (you can do both both but the protocol behind each is slightly different).

I have gone a little over 13% atm but have not measured, i dont think its astronomical or anything but i was recently under 13%,not over 14% currently i'd guess, what makes it less noticeable is my height and muscle content. Having an operation on your berries does you no favours in keeping muscle and letting you workout to get it back. I do have SLIGHT moobs, but i can feel defined pecs underneath, uncovering them is not a priority atm, i need to build back the muscle i lost and put on weight (including fat) for rugby. Oh and i use calipers for measuring, have my gf take 3 measurements at a number of points and take the average. Oh and i was just drinking some green tea when i got your reply! Heh

Anyway more to the workout side of things. I've nailed my deadlift form again which im very happy with, will get shown how to use crazy machines thursday so i can get back on to Close grip pulldowns (the need for gas-powered machines in my gym is beyond me)

Problem for me is currently my squats, still cant get it right. Should i be sticking my ass out like for deadlifts? I tried doing them onto a small platform behind me, at basically chair height. So in-effect I was sitting down on it, I heard this was good for re-learning form and good in general. However it just didnt hit me anywhere near as deep and surely it buggers form to crazy levels? Though i spose it could be a good variation for myself, considering my dodgy knees.

Anyway...that was a great blab! Does anyone know the name of the recent thread where a post was made that had a class step by step guide on the squat...knew i forgot to bookmark it for when i wasnt missing the train to uni. Checked the last 4 pages but totally cant find it

Again thanks for the posts!

[health4ni]

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Yup I eat 6 meals a day, in a 700/300kcal ratio (this would only be accurate for a workout day, i modify it for non)

Do you really go for 20g+ of protein per meal? I was always unsure of this i just knew you needed protein at decent levels throughout the day. For my 300kcal snacks I often just eat 40g of Brazil nuts or another type of nut which is only about 7g of protein but 280kcals. What do you do for the snack-type meals, just a shake?

I don't calorie count. Nor do I get my clients to calorie count. But if that works for you then fair play. If you are eating 6 meals a day then that's great. If you're ~64kg then that would mean getting about 25g of protein per meal. And a post-workout shake counts as one of the meals by the way.

imo probably best to just have a shake as a snack only once a day thus ensuring you get good quality food at all other times. It's not easy. But if you really want it you'll do it.

Snacks: well, nuts are great (which u seem to already know). Add in some thin-skinned berries and you're good to go.

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Oh and I figure i'll stick with my current high fat diet and just make some adjustments, mainly getting more veg in.

what kind of fat do you get? And why do you think it's a high fat diet?

- Some saturated fat in the form of meat, eggs & butter is ok. The rest is probably no good.
- Monounsaturated Fat from extra virgin olive oil, nuts and nut butters, avocados is good.
- Polyunsaturated Fat from fish oil, nuts & nut butters are good.

All the other sources of fat are generally bad.

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Yea I take 6 fish oil caps a day and get at least 1 serving of fish per day, typically salmon or mackerel to get my omega 3 hitting at least 10g per day.

Good man. Just remember though: 1 cap of Fish Oil is at best only 50% Omega-3. So 6 caps will at best be 3g of Omega-3. Wild Salmon & Mackerel may only have about 2-3g of Omega-3. So that's not 10g of Omega-3. The best way to get Fish Oil in to your body is via the liquid imo. Morning & evening is easy to do. Then just take some caps for daytime if you're not in the house.

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Would you consider 150g workout, 100g non too low? The only way i get carbs in, is with porridge/milk in the morning, veg and small values from nuts for example. And finally from oats in my shake.

not sure what you mean about the 150g at workout. You mean in your workout shake? If that's what you meant then that's too much imo for one shake. Split the shake in half & drink 1 15mins after training (30-40g protein & 75g carbs [plus other stuff ]) then the same thing 45mins after training. That will make a BIG difference. You'll be getting twice the protein within an hour of training and the carbs will be spread out more.

I've never really understood the whole Oat thing in shakes.

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I have gone a little over 13% atm but have not measured, i dont think its astronomical or anything but i was recently under 13%,not over 14% currently i'd guess, what makes it less noticeable is my height and muscle content. Having an operation on your berries does you no favours in keeping muscle and letting you workout to get it back. I do have SLIGHT moobs, but i can feel defined pecs underneath, uncovering them is not a priority atm, i need to build back the muscle i lost and put on weight (including fat) for rugby. Oh and i use calipers for measuring, have my gf take 3 measurements at a number of points and take the average. Oh and i was just drinking some green tea when i got your reply! Heh

nice to hear you are using calipers. I use calipers to. It's the only real way to get accurate body fat measurements (except for dunking someone under water etc, but that's not exactly an easy thing to do). I take 10 points on the body and pop the results into a tool that calculates the % for me (same as what Charles Poliquin uses). It's very good.

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so i can get back on to Close grip pulldowns (the need for gas-powered machines in my gym is beyond me)

forget them and do chin-ups / pull-ups. MUCH better than lat pull-downs. If you can't do many then just do the eccentric (lowering) phase; take 4-6secs to lower.

[Orinoco]

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I've also read elsewhere that eating about 4-5 oranges daily for breakfast is good practice as well. These foods have a pronounced anti-oestrogen effect when eaten daily in significant amounts.

This amount was to ensure you you're ingesting enough of the flavonoid quercitin to benefit from its anti-oestrogenic effects...you could take a supplement,but it's not ideal to take flavonoids in isolation...they work best in combination with others. I personally just like oranges....and fruit is best eaten on an empty stomach first thing in the morning, so.....

Didn't know about spinach being good for this...will have to eat more!

Vitamin E is thought to be anti-oestrogenic too, though the dose has to be around the 1000 iu mark.

What's DIM?

[health4ni]

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This amount was to ensure you you're ingesting enough of the flavonoid quercitin to benefit from its anti-oestrogenic effects...you could take a supplement,but it's not ideal to take flavonoids in isolation...they work best in combination with others. I personally just like oranges....and fruit is best eaten on an empty stomach first thing in the morning, so.....

Didn't know about spinach being good for this...will have to eat more!

Vitamin E is thought to be anti-oestrogenic too, though the dose has to be around the 1000 iu mark.

What's DIM?

if you are trying to "cut-up" then don't eat oranges on an empty stomach. Man you''ll get a huge insulin spike and your blood sugar will be all over the place. A good source of quercetin naturally is onions.

Make sure you get Vit E that is Gamma tocopherol dominant. The d-alpha stuff is not good at high dosages.

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Many individuals and even researchers are unaware that natural Vitamin E is comprised of a family of four tocopherols and four tocotrienols, which occur in various ratios in different foods. Since humans and animals do not synthesize their own vitamin E, they primarily acquire tocopherols from plants, which are the only living things capable of making vitamin E. Gamma-Tocopherol is often the most prevalent form of vitamin E in plant foods and seeds