Sage

[Fred]

I agree. Genetics only come into place when you are talking differences between "Elite" and "World Class" physiques imo.

Genetics for Powerlfiting is slightly different. A lot of this is optimal biomechanics, insertion points etc. etc. which is greatly influenced by genetics. Again though, the difference only comes into play at a much higher level than most of us reading this forum are at. In bodybuilding you have a whole range of movements you can use to stimulate a muscle and you can work round your natural build/structure to stimulate muscle growth.

[jtwigg]

For beginners, genetics are irrelevant as they are not manifest.

Beyond that, you are living in denial if you say they don't play a huge factor into any endeavour. You may well infer from this that I am talking about limits, but that was not in any way implied. It's presumably a reflection of YOUR mindset/ what is en vogue to discuss elsewhere online.

Being aware of weak/strong points is crucial to success. These may be due to training imbalances, or they may be due to genetics.

And how are muscle insertions more important in PL than BB? They literally determine the shape and growth potential of a muscle more than any other factor IMO.

Size related genetics are unimportant IMO. Who cares what weight the scale says or how many Xs are in front of the L on your shirt if you look rubbish. Genetics for shape/aesthetics however are paramount in physique-related goals more than anything I think, and without considering limits, it IS crucial to understand not what you can achieve (ie genetic limits), but how best you should go about achieving it.
Preferred levels of leanness when bulking, cutting approaches, frequency, volume, exercise choice and any other facet of physique development ultimately come down to genetics (of course modulated by environment).

[jtwigg]

Another interesting concept: can you change your skeletal structure through training/weight gain.

I'm not talking about increased bone density, that is a given. I believe significant weight gain in conjunction with resistance training and possibly other techniques (Dante of DC claims to have such a technique) could potential increase clavicle width for one.
This is likely to be particularly pronounced before mid-20s I would posit, as skeletal growth is still ongoing to some extent. I imagine this would be a cumulative effect of circulating hormone levels, direct mechanical effects, and local agents.

[Fred]

Quote

For beginners, genetics are irrelevant as they are not manifest.

Beyond that, you are living in denial if you say they don't play a huge factor into any endeavour. You may well infer from this that I am talking about limits, but that was not in any way implied. It's presumably a reflection of YOUR mindset/ what is en vogue to discuss elsewhere online.

Being aware of weak/strong points is crucial to success. These may be due to training imbalances, or they may be due to genetics.

And how are muscle insertions more important in PL than BB? They literally determine the shape and growth potential of a muscle more than any other factor IMO.

Size related genetics are unimportant IMO. Who cares what weight the scale says or how many Xs are in front of the L on your shirt if you look rubbish. Genetics for shape/aesthetics however are paramount in physique-related goals more than anything I think, and without considering limits, it IS crucial to understand not what you can achieve (ie genetic limits), but how best you should go about achieving it.
Preferred levels of leanness when bulking, cutting approaches, frequency, volume, exercise choice and any other facet of physique development ultimately come down to genetics (of course modulated by environment).

I think the trouble is that people believe that genetics are an unbeatable limitation, and can use them as an excuse for giving up on their endeavour. For example, my dad was fat and inactive, doesn't mean I have to be. My dad was not 6ft tall however, therefore neither am I. It's obvious which is the true genetic limitation. if I wanted to be a pro basketball player for example and worked on my game, jump height, and all of those things, I could be the best 5ft 10 B'ball player around. Or I could give up because I'm not tall enough.

Being aware of weak/strong points is crucial to success.
Never a truer word said.

In regards to the PL vs BB insertion points, I am also talking about connective tissue insertion points, not just muscle. That's where the PL biomechanics comes into it in terms of lifting a maximal load. With bodybuilding there is always another exercise or angle to stimulate muscle growth, but there is only one way to squat, which is why I believe genetics are more important in PL. I have long femurs so am not optimally built for squatting. Doesn't mean I will forever be incapable of squatting 2 x bw though. Just means that a powerlifter the same height as me with shorter femurs will probably beat me in a squatting competition.

Preferred levels of leanness when bulking, cutting approaches, frequency, volume, exercise choice and any other facet of physique development ultimately come down to genetics (of course modulated by environment).

I would say that they come down to genetics when you start out, but as time goes on, the body will find its new balance, and your body will respond differently to new stimuli. For example, if you start out with "fat" genetics (*cringe*, but bear with me...), and high carb just piles the fat on you, after a period of time with a regulated healthy diet, you could probably go back to a high carb approach and it would affect you differently, most likely you would handle those carbs better. It's the old nature vs nurture battle. Where does one end and the other begin?

Essentially, in my opinion our genetics only limit us a very small amount. The differences will only show at the very highest level in any sport or competition. I would rather be better than 95% of the rest than settle for mediocrity.

Somewhere in my diluted, poisoned, oestrogen filled genes is a caveman bursting to get out. Just have to tap into that gene instead of the younger ones...

[jtwigg]

Quote

I think the trouble is that people believe that genetics are an unbeatable limitation, and can use them as an excuse for giving up on their endeavour. But, just because my dad was fat and inactive, doesn't mean I have to be. My dad was not 6ft tall however, therefore neither am I. This is a genetic limitation if I wanted to be a pro basketball player for example. It's obvious which is the true genetic limitation. If I worked on my game, jump height, and all of those things though, I could be the best 5ft 10 B'ball player around. Or I could give up because I'm not tall enough.

How much of your dads activity and BF was genetic? The real genetic limitation people suffer from is an innate lack of drive IMO (no offense meant, this is just a sweeping generalisation from what I believe to be evident)

Being aware of weak/strong points is crucial to success. Never a truer word said.

In regards to the PL vs BB insertion points, I am also talking about connective tissue insertion points, not just muscle. That's where the PL biomechanics comes into it to lift a maximal load. With bodybuilding there is always another exercise or angle to stimulate muscle growth, but there is only one way to squat, which is why I believe genetics are more important in PL. I have long femurs so am not optimally built for squatting. Doesn't mean I will forever be incapable of squatting 2 x bw though.

So Chuck Vogelpuhl's squatting technique is the same as most other PLs? What about using olympic squats, extra-wide stance, box squats etc etc to target different weaknesses and improve PL squatting? Same priniciples apply as BB IMO.

Preferred levels of leanness when bulking, cutting approaches, frequency, volume, exercise choice and any other facet of physique development ultimately come down to genetics (of course modulated by environment). I would say that they come down to genetics when you start out, but as time goes on, the body will find its new balance, and your body will respond differently to new stimuli. For example, if you start out with "fat" genetics (*cringe*, but bear with me...), and high carb just piles the fat on you, after a period of time with a regulated healthy diet, you could probably go back to a high carb approach and it would affect you differently, most likely you would handle those carbs better. It's the old nature vs nurture battle. Where does one end and the other begin?

This is still related to genetics. Your body is genetically programmed to respond in this way at each BF%. Of course the difference in BF is environmental, but this is exactly what I was referring to in genetics modulated by environment. I think we agree here

Essentially, our genetics only limit us a very small amount. The differences will only show at the very highest level in any sport or competition. I would rather be better than 95% of the rest than settle for mediocrity.

Genetic limits are what get you to such levels.I do agree with you in principle however

Somewhere in my diluted, poisoned, oestrogen filled genes is a caveman bursting to get out. Just have to tap into that gene instead of the younger ones...

Exactly! You do not know your genetic/training induced strengths and weaknesses until you reach a certain level of development, and you do not know your genetic limits until you have almost maxed them out IMO. Look at Dorian before he started BB, you'd never have guessed he had the potential to get where he did.

[SpiderDan]

I think genetics does play a role even early on.

People tend gravitate towards things they have a natural affinity for; be it particular powerlifts, muscular growth in particular body parts or any other particular sporting endeavours (assuming they are exposed to them at a young age.)

Whilst a good trainee will work on their weak points, people will always have a standout body part or best lift due to that initial predispostion and their genetic leverages.

The chinese weightlifting program wont train everyone up to their genetic potential to select the best ones to compete. They pick the ones with seemingly the best genetics at a young age and put the effort in to them, at this point they'll likely have very little in the way of developement but a tonne of potential. But that requires the keen eye of a coach with many years of experience.

Genetics may put a limit on how far you can go but it doesnt stop people improving from where they're at, a person with long legs and short torso may not be a great squatter but it doesnt mean they can be a very good one. The main issue is peoples lack of objectivity, most people cant see a way of getting past a road block and when you're experimenting on yourself n=1 its very difficult to do that, which is why there are decent coaches about.

[PROF]

One of the reasons I don't like talking about genetics is because most of the population will always look for some kind of reason to not be their best.

One of the reasons why I don't like talking about stats, or body weight or calculating a specific level of lean mass based on certain physical characteristics is because it sets limits on ones self.


I don't like my boundaries to be defined, very often supposed bench marks become burgeoning plateaus which pollute the mind of the obsessed - lets face it nobody can predict your/my genetic potential yet everyone seems to wants to put you into a stereotype, or indeed place themselves in one;
-You're black, you'll never be president!
-You're white, didn't you know white men can't jump?
-You're Asian, olympic sprint hurdles? - don't even bother.

The mind is extremely powerful, far more important than I had previously given credit and thoughts like these certainly affect my mindset and probably yours whether you like to admit it or not.

I've noticed a few things regarding my mindset in the gym which I can't explain, (perhaps you can);
-why is it that my bodyweight goes up when I don't look at the scale, but when I measure every few days it stays the same indefinitely?
-why is it I can do extra reps when my training partner sets a target number but will fall short of that when training alone?
-why is it that when I do eventually break a plateau that my weights increase with ease for the next few weeks?

[SpiderDan]

Quote

The mind is extremely powerful, far more important than I had previously given credit and thoughts like these certainly affect my mindset and probably yours whether you like to admit it or not.

I've noticed a few things regarding my mindset in the gym which I can't explain, (perhaps you can);
-why is it that my bodyweight goes up when I don't look at the scale, but when I measure every few days it stays the same indefinitely?

Is this similar to a watched pot never boils? Is it likely that small changes day to day are easily masked by water balance and only when you step back a look at a longer time period that changes are noticed?

Quote

-why is it I can do extra reps when my training partner sets a target number but will fall short of that when training alone?

Id put that down to competitive attitude and not wanting to seem weak in the face of your training partner/"opponent". I squatted in my comp on saturday and absolutely smoked a weight that only 6 days earlier felt ridiculously heavy. Alot of people bring out their best when being watched or challenged.

Quote

-why is it that when I do eventually break a plateau that my weights increase with ease for the next few weeks?

I dont think anything in this game is linear, because the underlying variables (i.e. diet, mental attitude, physiological condition etc.) cannot be finitely controlled despite peoples best attempts.

You cant always have an awesome session, you may only get 1 or 2 a month when everything falls into place and plateaus are broken and physiological changes are made. Its then that session that sets you up for the some gradual progress over the next few weeks.

[PROF]

Quote

Is this similar to a watched pot never boils? Is it likely that small changes day to day are easily masked by water balance and only when you step back a look at a longer time period that changes are noticed?
I dont think anything in this game is linear, because the underlying variables (i.e. diet, mental attitude, physiological condition etc.) cannot be finitely controlled despite peoples best attempts.

You cant always have an awesome session, you may only get 1 or 2 a month when everything falls into place and plateaus are broken and physiological changes are made. Its then that session that sets you up for the some gradual progress over the next few weeks.

So true, I haven't progressed in a linear fashion for years now, it seems to be forever stop/start. Even when I started out training I don't really remember being able to add weight to the bar every week.

I don't know about anyone else but there are days when I feel like I know exactly what I am doing with training, where I am heading and how I intend to get there yet on others its completely the reverse, feels like I don't know ****. Plateaus are a strange because each one is a different puzzle to solve and boy are they annoying!