Good veg, bad veg.

[Ripped Barbarian]

Everyone has heard the '5 a day' campaign which simply tells you to eat more fruit and veg, but what i find interesting is the 'ignorance' of the type of vegetables being consumed, which are of course far from being equal, a lettuce for example is in my experience inferior to say, brocolli of the same mass although of course both have their places, brocolli for I3C and opiates within lettuce certainly help one sleep.

I have been thinking recently that not all veg are 'gods gift to health' and the matter requires further study.

The important thing is nutritional densitiy (especially regarding price paid) and other factors such as the plants phytochemicals, toxins and the like.
All veg, being plants, contain various compounds for different purposes to their own needs for example almost all alkaloids are evolved as some type of chemical defense against herbivores, i was reminded of this the other day by posting here (nu i think) certain things are obviously worse than others to the point of being totally toxic!
Cooking destroys certain antiherbivorous compounds but there are benefits to some types of raw veg (vit C is the obvious example)
I find it interesting that children often do not particularly like certain vegetables, many to the point of outright disgust, one of the schools of thought is that generally animals (inc humans) can instinctively tell what is good for them.

Antinutrients within vegetables are wide and varied, some bind to minerals and prevent absorption, some give you the ****s, some are potent estrogens and reduce fertility and some simply taste very bad, they have evolved in some way to prevent consumption in the evolutionary war.
Of course there are likely 'accidently evolved' antinutrients too, or at least we are eating say a fruit that has been evolved to be spread by birds to which they are harmless but to us can cause problems.

There is also the matter of 'counter evolution' on our part, i.e we have adapted to benefit from something that was previously of negative potential, slow reproducing trees for example take a long time to evolve where we may be evolving at a much quicker rate, mabye developing an enzyme to metabolize such antinutrients to benefit.
Of course it's not only plants that have developed anti consumption techniques etc but for now we will keep it to plants and mabye come up with another thread of animal products soom time soon.
So, it is clearly not a simple subject and worthy of in depth discussion here.

An interesting article here http://www.geo-pie.cornell.edu/issues/toxins.html is a good read and has a small list

Obviously there are downsides to every food product and massively varying levels of benefits.
Deadly nightshade is a good source of vitamin C but the alkaloids within make it a stupid choice.

What i want this thread to open up is a discussion on different vegetables nutient and antinutrient/toxin contents with an obvious aspect on health and fitness, i just think the current knowledge about isn't defined as well as it needs to be.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

'Twas me [and Drew Price] that posted about cooking and anti-nutrients in veg.

I agree that children, when first exposed to vegetables, tend to turn their nose up at them and that this might be a 'residual instinct' about what is fit to eat inherited from our ancestors.

I personally have changed my view dramatically on vegetables and how they are cooked. I believed all the theories about cooking leeching out all the vitamins and minerals etc. and forced myself to eat undercooked veggies. Now I cook the hell out of them! I think all this vitamin loss is over-hyped - especially if you cook them in such a way that the cooking liquor is retained with the veggies - like soups, stews and casseroles - or steam them rather than boil them and throw away the cooking water.

Here is an article on the subject I have found:

Quote

Cooking Does Not Destroy
Important Nutrients

by: Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

Don't believe claims that cooking destroys the nutritional value of your food, or that you must take enzyme pills to replace the enzymes lost in cooking. One popular author says that heating food above 118 degrees destroys 50 percent of the protein in our food, 50 percent of vitamins, and 80 percent of minerals, and all of the enzymes. These statements are nonsense. Protein and minerals are not destroyed by heat. Some vitamins are lost in cooking, but you still get plenty if you have a reasonably varied diet. The enzymes in food that are destroyed by heat are of no use to you anyway; you make your own enzymes for digestion of your food.

In your stomach and intestines, food is separated into carbohydrates, fats and proteins. Then enzymes made by your body break the carbohydrates, fats and proteins into their building blocks, and only these building blocks can be absorbed into your bloodstream. Enzymes in foods have no function in your body because they are treated like any other protein that you eat. Enzymes in foods are broken down into the building blocks of protein called amino acids in your intestines, so it makes no difference whether or not they are broken down by cooking.

The only common enzyme problem is lack of intestinal lactase that breaks down the double sugar in milk, which can cause diarrhea and cramping when you eat dairy products. You do not need to take enzyme pills unless you suffer from chronic diarrhea or severe weight loss, and the enzymes that may be prescribed for these conditions are copies of enzymes that your body makes, not the enzymes that are found in foods.

Many people believe that fresh fruits and vegetables always contain more nutrients than cooked ones, but cooked carrots have higher levels of antioxidants than fresh carrots. Cooking carrots in the presence of a small amount of oil or butter increases the amount of two antioxidants called beta carotene and phenolic acid. Cooking also increases the amount of lycopene you get from tomatoes. Cooking breaks the plant cells open to increase the absorption of these antioxidants and other beneficial plant chemicals. Adding a little oil or butter increases absorption of fat soluble chemicals.

Some vitamins are affected by cooking, but you'll still get plenty. The enzymes in food that are destroyed by heat are of no use to you; your body makes the enzymes you need to digest your food. Most of the nutrients in food (minerals, proteins, fats, carbohydrates) are not destroyed by heat, and many common foods are unpalatable or unsafe if they are not cooked. I recommend eating the widest possible variety of fruits and vegetables, raw or cooked, and fresh, frozen, canned or dried.

About The Author
Dr. Gabe Mirkin has been a radio talk show host for 25 years and practicing physician for more than 40 years; he is board certified in four specialties, including sports medicine. Read or listen to hundreds of his fitness and health reports at http://www.DrMirkin.com

[hailtotheking]

I understand that certain fruits and veg, like tomatos become more nutritious with cooking and processing. Any other examples?

[dope540]

Quote

Deadly nightshade is a good source of vitamin C but the alkaloids within make it a stupid choice.

i was going to nab the atropine solutions at uni now when i read the above in bold, as atropine is mad from deadly nightshade. its function is to dilate the pupils.

[Ripped Barbarian]

Quote

I understand that certain fruits and veg, like tomatos become more nutritious with cooking and processing. Any other examples?

It's the carotenoids which have increased availability due to processing, afaik it's due to cells being physically broken down and 'releasing' the carotenes, our bodies cannot digest plant cell walls (cellulose) so the processing will do this.

So anything with carotenes works for sure...carrots, greens, peppers...pretty well everything actually!
Combining such foods with a little fat is meant to help absoption, if you put a bit of oil in with tomatoes cook it up then skim the oil you will see it has become a very bright orange/red colour this is the lycopene.
Olive oil and tomatoes are a perfect match but cook the tomatoes and add the olive oil raw!

I think cooked veg could be more nutritious if phytic acid is reduced by cooking allowing more of the minerals to be used even if there is a reduction in minerals to cooking water etc.

I think a good protocol to follow:

-Grains, legumes etc if you eat them should be fully processed.
-Greens/roots should be cooked through until they take on their cooked state of taste and texture or put in stews.
-Tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers and other fruit 'vegetables' can be eaten raw but benefits can be obtained through cooking, cycling between the two could be a good option as tomatoes go well in salads and something like chilli con carne etc.
-Fruits make sense being eaten raw!

EDIT: It's frustrating but i guess also interesting the complete polarised nature of nutritional views, it's clear a 'balance' is key but you always get the two extremes contrasting from different sources, low fat, high fat, raw food, cooked food, eating regularly or itermittent fasting!

[Dtlv74]

Quote

It's the carotenoids which have increased availability due to processing, afaik it's due to cells being physically broken down and 'releasing' the carotenes, our bodies cannot digest plant cell walls (cellulose) so the processing will do this.

So anything with carotenes works for sure...carrots, greens, peppers...pretty well everything actually!
Combining such foods with a little fat is meant to help absoption, if you put a bit of oil in with tomatoes cook it up then skim the oil you will see it has become a very bright orange/red colour this is the lycopene.
Olive oil and tomatoes are a perfect match but cook the tomatoes and add the olive oil raw!

I think cooked veg could be more nutritious if phytic acid is reduced by cooking allowing more of the minerals to be used even if there is a reduction in minerals to cooking water etc.

I think a good protocol to follow:

-Grains, legumes etc if you eat them should be fully processed.
-Greens/roots should be cooked through until they take on their cooked state of taste and texture or put in stews.
-Tomatoes, peppers, cucumbers and other fruit 'vegetables' can be eaten raw but benefits can be obtained through cooking, cycling between the two could be a good option as tomatoes go well in salads and something like chilli con carne etc.
-Fruits make sense being eaten raw!

EDIT: It's frustrating but i guess also interesting the complete polarised nature of nutritional views, it's clear a 'balance' is key but you always get the two extremes contrasting from different sources, low fat, high fat, raw food, cooked food, eating regularly or itermittent fasting!

RC - Can't rep you until I've loved more people (you know the drill), but great post(s) on this

Agree very much with your suggested protocol.

[superstar]

nice discussions here ...