NU's Quest for Carnivory!

[Gareth83]

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I'd love to be able to ditch this job and do a day job! Unfortunately I wouldn't get anything that would come close in terms of equal financial recompense and, at the moment, that is the deciding factor unless I want to end up homeless!

Tell me about it, started a new job - 2 days, 2 nights, 4 off. Finding it hard and has definitely been reflected in my training today. Although it's the best paying job I could find for the time being.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

The end of the second week and, as I've reported earlier, the middle of this week has been marred by migraine that could have been kicked off by 'ketosis headache'. Certainly my ketone spillover was high around this period (8 mmol/L) and the nature of the headache - when it miraculously cleared and I was left with some weird mental/visual clarity after-effects - was more like the typical 'ketosis head' as opposed to migraine (dull ache in the centre of the forehead with a slight 'mental fog' rather than an intense, unilateral pulsatile pain). The time period that this lasted also seems to tie in with increased ketosis followed by adaptation - around 48-72 hours.

Anyway, my stats this morning are as follows:

Body weight: 90.9KG (no change)
Body fat %: 14.8% (no change)
Fasting Blood Glucose: 5.2 mmol/L (pretty much straight-line blood sugar control)
Ketones: 4 mmol/L (this is down from 8 earlier in the week, though it has been as low as 0.5 in between)

Due, in part, to working a night shift my appetite has been reduced and my intake has likewise been much lower and more 'variable'. Also I've been unable to keep records of the food I've eaten beyond the first two or three days of this week, so the figures below should just be taken as a general indication of what I've eaten (total calories and macro % wise):

Protein: 142.1g (+32.9/-60.8)

g per KG BW: 1.6g/KG
% total calories: 24%

Carbohydrate: 11.6g (+1.3/-0.7)

% total calories: 2%

Fat: 190.6g (+12.5/-13.6)

% total calories: 74%

Total Daily Calories (Mean) 2329.9 kcals

Generally I have found my appetite suppressed and have only really eaten one main meal a day with maybe one or two very small snacks. Yesterday, in particular, I was very active on waking (another good morning's sleep after the night-shift!) and did not feel like eating until early evening.

I've also increasingly observed, having been low-carbing for some time and recovered my natural hunger/satiety sensitivity, that I perform best physically when I don't eat beforehand (more energy and mental focus to do the task at hand) whereas if I eat a meal any desire to do anything physical rapidly evaporates postprandially. This, I feel, makes sense in evolutionary terms: physical activity (i.e., hunting and gathering food) is motivated by hunger (didn't Arnold say "stay hungry"?) and rest and recuperation follows the feast.

I think the idea that we have to feed activity is putting the cart before the horse - food is the reward and end result of activity. If you do it that way you can never overeat or overtrain. this also fits in with Gary Taubes' re-examination and explanation of the energy balance equation.

Sweet cravings have been a little stronger toward the end of the week but I don't know if this my sweet-tooth reasserting itself or whether my body is telling me I need certain nutrients. I still don't see any signs or symptoms of vitamin C deficiency, so I may resist for a further week and see how I feel at the end of that.

[spud]

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I've also increasingly observed, having been low-carbing for some time and recovered my natural hunger/satiety sensitivity, that I perform best physically when I don't eat beforehand (more energy and mental focus to do the task at hand) whereas if I eat a meal any desire to do anything physical rapidly evaporates postprandially. This, I feel, makes sense in evolutionary terms: physical activity (i.e., hunting and gathering food) is motivated by hunger (didn't Arnold say "stay hungry"?) and rest and recuperation follows the feast.

I think the idea that we have to feed activity is putting the cart before the horse - food is the reward and end result of activity. If you do it that way you can never overeat or overtrain. this also fits in with Gary Taubes' re-examination and explanation of the energy balance equation.

I agree, I said in another thread- regarding morning workouts - that when i was in the building game and trying to fund my college fees -no builder,scaffolder ,labourer etc had breakfast before they started work. They often did the heaviest work on a empty stomach(maybe a cup of tea!)and then have a fry up a couple of hours later! maybe I got used to working up a sweat on a empty stomach but I still think working out first thing in the morning and hungry then feeding up an hour or more later gives you good focus and,fits in with the hunter gather analogy.

good to see no ill effects NU! Is there any chance of seeing a couple of days menu!?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Is there any chance of seeing a couple of days menu!?

It would be incredibly boring and doesn't really comprise a menu as such!

I used to use a lot of mince (beef, lamb, pork) seasoned with salt, pepper and maybe a few herbs and spices made into burgers or 'cutlets' and either fried or roasted in the oven.

The last couple of weeks I've resurrected the salmon portions served with scrambled egg and a dollop of sour cream idea. I've also discovered that ribeye steaks (with plenty of fatty marbling) are the tastiest and juiciest thanks to a tip from Jamie Oliver's TV show!

In order to use up some lamb mince from the freezer I seasoned it as above and mashed it up until it would hold a shape and made some 'burgers' by sandwiching some slices of cheddar cheese between two layers of lamb mince. I cooked this in a roasting pan in the oven and, when served, had a nice melted cheese filling.

I've now bought some fresh Welsh lamb 'steaks' from Tesco's Finest range - hopefully they will be as tasty and succulent as the ribeye beef steaks when slow cooked in the oven.

As I said, without the veggie accompaniment it doesn't really amount to a 'menu' of 'recipes' as such but it is filling, tasty and nourishing...and easy to prepare and cook!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

As I have undergone a higher level of ketosis of late and the whole subject seems to be one of those that carries with it a plethora of negative myths, I thought this would be a good place to quote an article I bookmarked quite some while ago on the subject. It definitely makes for some interesting reading!

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POST-EXERCISE KETOSIS

by:
Johan H Koeslag
Medical Physiology
University of Stellenbosch
PO Box 19063
Tygerberg, 7505.
South Africa

WHAT IS KETOSIS?
"Ketosis" is the name given to any situation where "ketone bodies" accumulate in the blood, and are then partly breathed out, some appears in the urine, but the majority are burnt by the muscles, brain and other tissues of the body. The name "ketone bodies" is a bit confusing. The name is a corruption of "ketones of the body". So they are not bacteria, nor little particles or organisms, or anything that might have a "body". They are just substances that are formed from the metabolism of fats. They are "acetoacetic acid", and "3-hydroxybutyric acid", and common or garden "acetone".

These substances are produced by the liver whenever the liver has to produce glucose at a very high rate.

BACKGROUND METABOLISM
We store relatively little carbohydrate, most of it being turned into fat immediately after a meal. So, about 60% of what we normally eat is starch and sugars, but as soon as it is absorbed from the gut, this carbohydrate rapidly removed from the blood, some of it being turned into glycogen in the liver and in muscles, but the majority is turned into fats by the liver and fat cells. Between meals this fat is then released from the fat cells and is our primary fuel for everyday use, as well as for exercise etc. The amount of glycogen stored, after a hearty meal, will be used up within 24 hours if no new meal is taken. This just emphasises how little carbohydrate we are capable of storing.

Once all the liver glycogen is used up (after 24 hours of fasting, or much sooner if you exercise) the liver has to make glucose from non-carbohydrate sources. The process is called "gluconeogenesis". The liver can make glucose from lactic acid, if available, but its prime raw ingredient is protein. Fats cannot be turned back into glucose.

As a result of an intriguing metabolic quirk (See: Footnote), whenever the liver engages in "gluconeogenesis" it burns fats (to provide the energy for the gluconeogenic process), but is unable to combust them (the fats) right down to carbon dioxide and water. The half broken down products of fat metabolism in the liver are then converted into these "ketone bodies". They are released into the blood, from where they are taken up by any tissue that wants them.

In fact, they are lapped up (voraciously devoured) in preference to glucose or fats or lactic acid by most tissues, where they are burnt to carbon dioxide and water. The heart loves them, so do the muscles, and, most importantly, the brain which normally only burns glucose (it cannot use fats - again for some strange metabolic quirk) also loves them and will burn them in preference to glucose, although the brain cannot survive entirely without glucose.

IMPORTANCE OF KETONE BODIES
Thus, ketone bodies play a very important role in being able to survive a shortage of food, especially carbohydrates. If it were not for ketone bodies most of us would be unconscious after 48 hrs of fasting!

POST-EXERCISE KETOSIS
Whenever carbohydrates are in short supply, during fasting, a low carbohydrate diet, or after exercise (or a combination of these!) the liver will produce ketone bodies (plus glucose, via gluconeogenesis, of course). The ketone bodies have a distinctive smell, which can be detected in the breath. The urine will also smell of them (if the other urine smells don't overwhelm them). The smell is difficult to describe. Some people cannot smell acetoacetic acid as such, but can recognise the acetone smell in the breath. If you are able to smell acetoacetic acid it is very distinctive, and not easily mistaken for anything else. The closest other smell resembling that of acetoacetic acid is very ripe apples, but not everyone finds that a useful description.

Ketone bodies disappear very rapidly from the blood if you eat carbohydrates. Eat a couple of hearty slices of bread (with jam), a Chelsea bun, or a generous slice of cake, and they are gone from the blood within minutes. If you do not eat anything, or if you deliberately avoid carbohydrates then the ketone body concentrations in the blood increase steadily for several hours, and can remain elevated in the blood (and breath etc) for days.

IN SUMMARY
So, if you smell ketone bodies in your breath after exercise, then all it means is that you are not eating enough carbohydrate. That in itself is not a disaster. It is a perfectly normal reaction to an emergency situation, and one that has helped humanity survive shortages of food for many years at a time. I have no idea how it influences a person's ability to exercise: my guess is that performance would not be as good as it would be on a more generous carbohydrate diet. I don't think it affects people intellectually or emotionally, other than that it is often associated with hunger or a craving for carbohydrate (chocolates etc), and might thus make people crabbier than they might otherwise be.

Continued in next post.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Continued from last post

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POSSIBLE DANGERS
There is a small but real possibility, if you are regularly experiencing post- exercise ketosis, that your liver just cannot make enough glucose for your needs. (Remember that ketone bodies are produced as a consequence of the gluconeogenic process. See: Footnote.) When I was inducing post-exercise ketosis in the subjects for my research (healthy young students), a few of them would start to feel faint, sweaty and very unsteady on their feet about 6 hours after the exercise (they were allowed no food intake during those 6 hours). Their ketone bodies levels in the blood would then be sky high; but what was making them feel faint and dizzy were the low levels of glucose in the blood. Their livers were just not coping with the demand for glucose (despite just sitting around doing nothing - except watching videos - for those 6 hours after exercise). The treatment was simple: we just gave them a plateful of cake and muffins with lots of jam to eat. Within minutes the symptoms were gone, and when we tested the blood, ketone bodies could no longer be found, and their blood sugars would be normal.

A more serious situation could arise if the low blood sugar develops while you are out running. Apart from the dangers of falling into the traffic, there is the further danger that people would not automatically think of giving you cake to eat while you are lying in the road in a semi-conscious, or confused state!

DO NOT DRINK ALCOHOL IF YOU ARE KETOTIC!
Alcohol is a powerful inhibitor of gluconeogenesis. In fact, it forces part of the gluconeogenic metabolic process into reverse. This means that if all the glucose in the blood is being derived from gluconeogenesis then the consumption of alcohol will inevitably cause the blood glucose level to fall. Worse still, the alcohol also stops ketone body production, thus leaving the brain entirely without fuel.


A person who is ketotic is 100% reliant on gluconeogenesis to maintain adequate levels of glucose in the blood. If, under these circumstances alcohol is taken, the person will become disorientated and might lose consciousness, not just from the alcohol, but from low blood sugar. Needless to say, this could be very dangerous, and even fatal.


Alcohol does not have these effects if the glycogen stores in the liver are normal. Under these circumstances the blood glucose level in the blood is maintained by the breakdown of liver glycogen, a process that is not influenced by alcohol. If a person becomes confused under these circumstances it is due simply to the pharmacological effects of the alcohol!

DIABETES MELLITUS
In diabetes mellitus the liver is furiously engaged in gluconeogenesis whether you are eating carbohydrates or not. The liver, in diabetes, is systematically turning your body into glucose. Everything mentioned above applies: as well as churning out vast quantities of glucose, the liver also produces large amounts of ketone bodies. So these people also smell strongly of acetoacetic acid.
But in diabetes mellitus the ketosis does not go away on eating a generous slice of cake! In fact it just steadily gets worse whatever you do.


The other give away is that in diabetes mellitus you lose weight very rapidly without having to restrict your diet or needing to exercise. You also pass large amounts of urine, and are constantly thirsty. If you have none of these symptoms then you do not have diabetes mellitus.

THE COMBUSTION OF FAT

When fats (more correctly: "fatty acids"), which consist of long carbon chains (usually 16 or 18 carbon atoms long), are metabolized they are first broken into 2-carbon pieces, releasing considerable quantities of energy in the process. These 2-carbon molecules are in the form of acetic acid (the acid in vinegar).

To burn this acetic acid to carbon dioxide and water, it is first attached to oxaloacetic acid. The combined molecule (acetic acid-oxaloacetic acid) then undergoes a series of chemical changes which result in the acetic acid turning into carbon dioxide and water, leaving, once again, a molecule of oxaloacetic acid which combines with the next acetic acid to be released from the breakup of the fatty acid. A large amount of energy is released during this process, which can be used for muscle contraction and all of the other activities in the cell and, ultimately, in the body.

IMPORTANCE OF OXALOACETIC ACID

Oxaloacetic acid is reformed every time one acetic acid molecule is burnt. But it can also be formed (or topped up), via a few metabolic steps, from glucose, pyruvic acid, lactic acid, and several amino acids (the components of proteins).

Whichever way oxaloacetic acid arises, it is absolutely essential for the final combustion of acetic acid. In fact, this is its primary function in most tissues - allowing the final complete breakdown of fats into carbon dioxide and water.

Footnote:
GLUCONEOGENESIS
AND THE FORMATION OF KETONE BODIES

However, in the liver, oxaloacetic acid can also be used to form glucose during gluconeogenesis. In fact, pyruvic acid, lactic acid and some amino acids have first to be converted into oxaloacetic acid before their atoms can be rearranged to form glucose. Thus, when the liver is engaged in vigorous gluconeogenesis all of its oxaloacetic acid is turned into glucose, leaving none to combine with acetic acid.

The liver cannot turn acetic acid production off, since the breakdown of fats to acetic acid provides the energy for gluconeogenesis. The liver is left with no option but to convert this acetic acid, which it cannot use, into acetoacetic acid (2 acetic acid molecules joined end-to-end). This is then exported via the blood to the rest of the body, including the heart, muscles and brain, which seem to love this semi-digested form of fat!

Acetoacetic acid is a "ketone body". The other ketone bodies are formed from it. It is only ever formed in quantity by the liver when oxaloacetic acid is diverted from its normal use, to form glucose instead. Gluconeogenesis and ketone body formation therefore always go hand in hand.

My comments in next post.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

There are some downloadable PDF references for this article here.

As you can see, fats are the fuel that power the process of gluconeogenesis (an energetically expensive way to make glucose without carbs) which is why the post-exercise period is as important for fat loss as the actual time spent exercising. This is why I say consuming carbs pre/post-workout is a very bad idea if your goal is to shift the flab!

As long as you are consuming sufficient protein (and that does not have to be the majority of calories consumed!) throughout the day and maybe pre/post-workout, you will not catabolize muscle tissue beyond what is considered part of the 'amino acid pool' (a small amount of generalized whole-body tissue) while fatty tissue WILL be catabolized to provide the fatty acids and glycerol to power the whole gluconeogenetic/protein synthetic process.

[Wotan]

Bravo!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

End of the third week and here are my stats as of this morning:

Weight 91KG (up 0.1KG!)
Body fat: 14.8% (no change!)
Fasting Blood Glucose: 3.9 mmol/L (this is the lowest fasting BG I've had in a long while!).
Ketones: 8 mmol/L (back up again from 4 last week)

A possible explanation for the BG and ketones is that I did not eat a lot the day before (work!)

To make things worse this morning I had a busy day planned and didn't take the time to have breakfast - or anything to eat until mid-afternoon! I had to pick up a parcel from the sorting office, do some shopping then, once I was back home, I went straight out to mow/strim/rake the back lawn and sweep the patio. Did some potting up of plants and watering...Oh and had to empty out, clean up and refill the water feature (OK, I've got the gardening bug bad!). Even popped back out to the nearby DIY/garden centre in between all this...before I could finally settle down to something to eat and drink!

I've had to stop making an accurate day-to-day (even meal-by-meal!) record of my intakes as it was getting difficult to maintain when a lot of what I had eaten was at work and I had to keep scribbling down notes of macros consumed so that I could enter it onto the spreadsheet on my PC when I got home. But more importantly, I noticed that as I was entering the data and seeing the breakdowns as I went along, I was consciously altering my intakes to reach a 'preconceived' goal. This was contrary to my wish to eat based on hunger/satiety rather than rigidly worked out menus and timetables.

So I have decided to retrospectively enter one day (randomly decided upon) of food intakes to see what the macro breakdowns and total calories are:

Wed April 30
Protein: 113.2g

As g/KG: 1.2
As % Total Calories: 13%

Carbs: 16.8g

As % Total Calories: 2%

Fat: 329.5g

As % Total Calories: 85%

Total Daily Calories: 3485.5 kcals

Energy levels throughout the week have been phenomenal! Still no signs of vitamin C deficiency.

For those who predicted acute constipation followed by haemorrhoids - my bowel movements have been fine though my transit time has been greatly increased.

I'm not phased by this - it was expected. Without indigestible plant fibre, most of the food is completely broken down and absorbed (no waste as such).

Indeed, meat and even small pieces of bone can be completely liquefied by stomach acid which, at an average pH of 1-2, can corrode metal!

[hailtotheking]

With regards to your last comment - that is if your stomach acid levels are normal. Alot of gastroenterologists are finding that with ageing stomach acid is on the decline, which could explain alot of other problems that occur with ageing further down the line.