How carbs and insulin make you fat and/or ill!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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A P/S ratio of 0.3-0.4 is optimum iirc.

So you could have 10g pufa, 30g mono, 30g sat.

70g fat. 630 calories from fat.

That's the sort of fat consumption i'd recommend.

So on my TDEE of 2154 kcals I'd have just 28.8% of my calories from fat? I don't think so! That means, if I kee rotein to a reasonable 30% I've got have more than 40% from CHO. If I stick to all the sawdust high fibre whole grains and low energy density green veg, I'd be eating all day!

Animal fat is pretty close to that ratio anyway - just add in a serving of oily fish for the extra long-chain omega-3's now and again - sorted!

[Weaves]

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Chylomicrons are the lipoproteins that carry ingested triglycerides to the liver and various other tissues and organs. It's cargo may just as easily be oxidised for energy

Define easy, as it is a longer process to generate ATP and thus not suitable for anaerobic work.

[Weaves]

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So on my TDEE of 2154 kcals I'd have just 28.8% of my calories from fat? I don't think so! That means, if I kee rotein to a reasonable 30% I've got have more than 40% from CHO. If I stick to all the sawdust high fibre whole grains and low energy density green veg, I'd be eating all day!

Animal fat is pretty close to that ratio anyway - just add in a serving of oily fish for the extra long-chain omega-3's now and again - sorted!

How would you be eating all day? Could you not say have 100grams of carbs three times during the day?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Obes Rev. 2008 May;9(3):251-63.

Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes; New York: AA Knopf.

Bray GA.

Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Baton Rouge, LA, USA. brayga@pbrc.edu

Good Calories, Bad Calories has much useful information and is well worth reading. Gary Taubes's tenets related to obesity can be summarized in four statements (i) He believes that you can gain weight and become obese without a positive energy balance; (ii) He also believes that dietary fat is unimportant for the development of obesity; (iii) Carbohydrate, in his view, is what produces obesity and (iv) Insulin secreted by the carbohydrate is the problem in obesity. However, some of the conclusions that the author reaches are not consistent with current concepts about obesity. There are many kinds of obesity, and only some depend on diet composition. Two dietary manipulations produce obesity in susceptible people: eating a high-fat diet and drinking sugar- or high-fructose corn syrup-sweetened beverages. Insulin is necessary but not sufficient in the diet-dependent obesities. When diet is important, it may be the combination of fat and fructose (the deadly duo) that is most important. Regardless of diet, it is a positive energy balance over months to years that is the sine qua non for obesity. Obese people clearly eat more than do lean ones, and food-intake records are notoriously unreliable, as documented by use of doubly labelled water. Underreporting of food intake is greater in obese than in normal-weight people and is worse for fat than for other macronutrient groups. Accepting the concept that obesity results from a positive energy balance does not tell us why energy balance is positive. This depends on a variety of environmental factors interacting with the genetic susceptibility of certain individuals. Weight loss is related to adherence to the diet, not to its macronutrient composition.

And the response is here: http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/w...ob-reviews.pdf

I'd say GT owned Bray in that one!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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How would you be eating all day? Could you not say have 100grams of carbs three times during the day?

Duh! I said "If I stick to all the sawdust high fibre whole grains and low energy density green veg..." (which are supposed to be the 'good' carbs are they not?) I would be eating all day. For example, I'd have to eat 130g of All-Bran for breakfast (a recommended serving is 26g (so I'd have to stuff myself with five times that amount!), 2.5 KG of spinach with my lunch and almost 1.5 KG of broccoli with my dinner to get 300g of carbohydrate into my diet!

[Weaves]

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Duh! I said "If I stick to all the sawdust high fibre whole grains and low energy density green veg..." (which are supposed to be the 'good' carbs are they not?) I would be eating all day. For example, I'd have to eat 130g of All-Bran for breakfast (a recommended serving is 26g (so I'd have to stuff myself with five times that amount!), 2.5 KG of spinach with my lunch and almost 1.5 KG of broccoli with my dinner to get 300g of carbohydrate into my diet!

What is wrong with pasta and rice? Why 2.5kg of spinach?

[ATZ]

Oh yeah. Completely owned.

Taubez is amazing. His argument is that overeating does not cause obesity, that insulin does. There is only an association between obesity and overeating -- in fact, overeating is caused by obesity.

to prove this claim, he would need evidence of people staying lean while overeating fat and protein. Also, he would need to show people getting fat on a high carb diet that accomplishes a calorie deficit. He has none of this evidence.

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his only goal was to discredit Bray not to actually address the arguments Bray had put forth

you'll note that Taubes cpmletely and utterly ignores where Bray talks about the 1980 food report that Taubes uses as the key part of his argument in the book: in it, they reported that fat people ate no more than skinny and this is where taubes' entire argument in the book starts

Bray, of course, admitted flatly that that data was wrong

then again, when Taubes is having to cite 1963 research to make his point, he's lost the plot already. it's 2008 and we know a few things more now

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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What is wrong with pasta and rice?

They are not good carbs (if such a thing exists!). Even if I chose whole wheat pasta I'd have to consume 476g (almost half a kilo) just to get 100g of CHO in one meal! Pretty much the same with whole grain rice.

[Weaves]

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They are not good carbs (if such a thing exists!). Even if I chose whole wheat pasta I'd have to consume 476g (almost half a kilo) just to get 100g of CHO in one meal!

Surely you would look at it from a calorific point of view though? 100grams being about 379 kcal.

The whole wheat pasta I have in my cupboard is 60 grams of carbohydrate per 100grams, so only 170grams to obtain 100grams of Carbohydrate. Correct me if I have made an error, but if I have not I suggest you change where you buy your pasta from.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Oh yeah. Completely owned.

Indeed Bray was!

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Taubez is amazing. His argument is that overeating does not cause obesity, that insulin does. There is only an association between obesity and overeating -- in fact, overeating is caused by obesity.

Actually, I think his point is (funny you missed it considering you claim to have read the book) that hormonal dis-regulation (caused by the large insulin response to a high carb diet) causes the deposition of fat into adipocytes leaving the cells starved of fuel (all cells rely on fatty acids more than glucose) which induces hunger and may lead to overeating (usually carbs) if readily available. So the carbs>insulin response precedes fat accumulation/fatty acid shortage which precedes increase hunger/over-eating.

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to prove this claim, he would need evidence of people staying lean while overeating fat and protein. Also, he would need to show people getting fat on a high carb diet that accomplishes a calorie deficit. He has none of this evidence.

Again, if you read the book he cited several examples - including photographs - of people on subsistence diets (famine conditions/semi-starvation) who were overweight or obese while the babies were immaciated.