How carbs and insulin make you fat and/or ill!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

I give you full marks for stubbornly flogging a dead horse!

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I'll not really argue point 1. & 2. to any great degree but lets start with point 3. If you were to take him at his word due to this inference you'd never eat fruit (most of which is any equal split of glucose and fructose), yet those populations with a high fruit intake show all sorts of improved health markers.

Who's saying you can't eat fruit? GT? Not in that quote anyway. I don't personally eat fruit because the last time I re-introduced it to my diet it played havoc with my triglycerides - but it may have been due to the reduction in total fat and increase in protein too. You would have to cite some data showing that people on a high fruit diet enjoy better health - the beyondveg.com website is written by vegans, vegetarians ans even former fruitarians and most say it is not a healthy diet at all - from both research and personal experience and observation of other fruitarians. Have you ever done a BG test on someone fasted and after eating a small banana? The BG jump is pretty much on a par with eating the equivalent amount of pure sugar.

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Point 6 he specifically say "Excess calories do not cause us to grow fatter" This is factually incorrect. If you are in positive energy balance you will get fatter. This is the law of thermodynamics, which however you try dress it up with that horrible study you always quote on this arguement your can't get round it.

That would depend on which facts you are assuming he is talking about. My understanding of his posititon (which I share) is that the number of calories you consume as food won't necessarily make you fatter because the body tend to increase metabolism to match the intake in the same way it will decrease the metabolism if you reduce the intake, thus striving to keep the body weight stable. Gaining weight is not necessarily the same as gaining fat - GT specifically says getting 'fatter' not 'heavier'.

The only determinant of how those calories are partitioned are the hormones and their balance and that is affected more by the quality of the calories consumed (macro ratio) than by the quantity. So it is the proportion of lean to fat mass that is of importance not the body weight itself.

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The whole carbs stimulate insulin, insulin stimulates fat storage, ergo carbs are bad is retarded. Are you trying to tell me if I ate a diet in a negative calorie balance, with a high % of carbs I'f become fat? Thats physically impossible - I'd have to synthesise tissue from no energy. Hell you could market that to the green lobbyists.

Again you may lose weight and be underweight but it is the proportion of that weight which is either lean tissue or body fat that is pertinent to health. Someone on identical calories and identical activity levels may lose/gain/maintain the same weight but i am willing to bet that if those calories came predominantly from carbs in subject A they would have more fat mass than subject B on a low carb diet of equivalent calories. You need to get your frames of reference right first before commenting on what is said in the book.

[ATZ]

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. Someone on identical calories and identical activity levels may lose/gain/maintain the same weight but i am willing to bet that if those calories came predominantly from carbs in subject A they would have more fat mass than subject B on a low carb diet of equivalent calories.

Not if they consume an adequate and identical amount of protein between subjects A and B. Which if you read back through the thread has been my contention from the start.

If you were to argue that it is easier to eat an excess of CHO, especially in the refined forms, which in turn leads to a positive calorie balance and subsequent fat gain I wouldn't disagree. But to pin fat gain and obseity solely on CHO is wrong on so many levels.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

CHO is the only macronutrient that has actually increased in the average diet according to consecutive NHANES data over the last few decades. Protein intakes have remained stable and fat intakes have slightly decreased (more so because of a reduction saturated fat intake - polyunsaturated fat intake has increased to replace the saturates). You can mirror these changes exactly with the increase in obesity and other related diseases.

[Ripped Barbarian]

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CHO is the only macronutrient that has actually increased in the average diet according to consecutive NHANES data over the last few decades. Protein intakes have remained stable and fat intakes have slightly decreased (more so because of a reduction saturated fat intake - polyunsaturated fat intake has increased to replace the saturates). You can mirror these changes exactly with the increase in obesity and other related diseases.

And what about calorie intake, exercise levels and vitamin/mineral intakes?

Picking only carbohydrates as the change in this time period is rediculous.

For a start, different countries carbohydrate intake % does not reflect obeseity, how do you explain that?

Japan has a higher carb % intake than the UK but a much lower rate of obeseity.

Dosn't go with your little theory does it!

[SpiderDan]

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And what about calorie intake, exercise levels and vitamin/mineral intakes?

Picking only carbohydrates as the change in this time period is rediculous.

For a start, different countries carbohydrate intake % does not reflect obeseity, how do you explain that?

Japan has a higher carb % intake than the UK but a much lower rate of obeseity.

Dosn't go with your little theory does it!

x 2

Nu saying carbs is the only thing to have changed over the past few decades is a very broad brush stroke.

I cant quote a study but Im pretty sure caloric intake has increased compared to activity levels and nutrient density of food has declined.

bottom line is the day I blame something like millet or quinoa for getting fat is the day I re-examine the rest of my life.

[ATZ]

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CHO is the only macronutrient that has actually increased in the average diet according to consecutive NHANES data over the last few decades. Protein intakes have remained stable and fat intakes have slightly decreased (more so because of a reduction saturated fat intake - polyunsaturated fat intake has increased to replace the saturates). You can mirror these changes exactly with the increase in obesity and other related diseases.

So CALORIE intake has increased. People eat more, move less, empty calories in the form of sugary drinks and sweets are easily obtained and easily over consumed. But it is NOT specifically because they are CHO that causes the fat gain, its the positive energy balance.

[energy]

Of course the type of carb will matter as well, just as the type of fat will make a difference. Or is a carb a carb and fat fat???

[ATZ]

Type, in some senses yes. Its easier to down a litre of coke than eat the equivelant amount of sweet potato, that said, if you matched them in terms of quantity - 100g of carbs from coca cola, and 100g of carbs from sweet pots they'd produce the exact same hormonal response. Sweet potato wins out obviously in the health stakes as it is more satieing, full of nutrients and fibre etc where as coca cola is nutrient void. Empty calories as they say.l

[energy]

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Type, in some senses yes. Its easier to down a litre of coke than eat the equivelant amount of sweet potato, that said, if you matched them in terms of quantity - 100g of carbs from coca cola, and 100g of carbs from sweet pots they'd produce the exact same hormonal response. Sweet potato wins out obviously in the health stakes as it is more satieing, full of nutrients and fibre etc where as coca cola is nutrient void. Empty calories as they say.l

So the increase in disease obesity etc could come from a lack of nutients.

Or pollution

Or cars

Or trampolines

All these things have increased over the past few decades

[Wotan]

Just a small notice to all posters that in order to keep this thread, er, more or less positive(ish) I have decided to remove any remarks that may be construed as being personal attacks or suchlike [by either party].

Hope nobody minds.

If there any that I miss, or any that someone feels strongly about then feel free to contact me and I'll deal with it. Ok??

No need to answer this post.