Getting on a long-term healthy fat loss diet

[JJJB2010]

Hey guys,

Right most of you know I've been on the AD and the RFL diet to lose a combination of about 25-30lbs in 12 months. Some might say impressive, some may not (given how extreme these diets are) - I am happy with my loss, but agree that the extreme-ness the loss isn't that high.

So, after having nearly a year of madness eating low amounts of food, combinations which made social life a nightmare (wouldn't mind if I'd dropped 50lbs) I think its the right decision to go on a long term calorie, macro breakdown of food.

Rather than seeing them diets as negative, I can see them as they've helped kick start my diet loss and I can only get better.

Now my ultimate goal is to get to around 12% body fat and stay there eating the same, training the same to remain the same. I know everyone posts 'I don't want to get big' and sometimes don't mean it but I do - I've got Uni to be getting on with which is far more important but I don't want to be coming here in 4 years time saying "I ate crap in uni, put on 3 stone - help me lose it" because thats just stupid and something I dont think I'd even be able to do even if I was given the chance.

So as far as calories are concerned here is the real problem. I am actually quite 'scared' of eating too many calories - and think that this is where my problem lies. Due to eating too little throughout my whole life in an attempt to shift weight, I've always consumed breakfast/lunch/dinner combining upto 1000 calories - Weigh****chers did me no favours.

SO, guys and girls I'm asking you to help me breakthrough this stupid barrier and actually trust those e.g: 11xlbs=calories formula calculations.

So heres a breakdown of stats for me
Weight: 162 lbs
BF: No idea, been told highert han 18% so say 22% to be safe?
Height: 5'4''
Activity: Walking and home pressups/sittups/pullups (x3 per week-M/W/F)


Looking at a post from Gareth in the sticky;
Chad Waterbury's - Goal: Fat loss Kcals = LBM in lbs * 12
Weight: 162lbs | BF:23%, so kcals= 125 * 12 = 1,500 Calories

Does that seem about right? 1500 Calories for fat loss for someone who is 5'4'' and 162lbs @ 23% BF?

As far as Macro breakdown is concerened, I have no idea. I remember Lyle reccomended around 100G Minimum to stay out ot long term ketosis, and just thought I would add I am not doing carb ups at all they were awful.

So based on the general reccomendation, say 1g per lb for protein, and what, 150g per day of carbs?
Protein = 1*162= 162g = 162*4 = 648 Calories
Carbs = 150g = 120*4 = 480 Calories
Leaving 41g of fat = 369 Calories

How does that sound?


Sorry for the long post, but serious about losing this fat and I'm not giving up and didn't want to post the usual 1 sentence "how many calories should I have" post

Thanks, I look forward to your replies.

[synergistic]

John Stone Fitness - Welcome! I always find looking at his picture/stats/faq/food logs a good guide.

But if you've been on fat loss diets for a year now, sticking at 1500kcal now has got to be doing you no good? Why not bump it up for a little while, before going back to fat loss?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

By obsessing on calories you will always have a problem with them. No one can accurately say how many calories you will need per day to either lose, gain or maintain weight - the various calculations can only give you a ballpark figure. For some people they may well be fairly accurate and for many others they may well be miles out either way. We are chaotic 'machines' - we do not require the same amount of calories each and every day; some days we may require more than others and vice versa. By all means use a calculation to give you a starting point but be prepared to alter this up or down as you go along. In the process, try to rediscover your inbuilt hunger/satiety mechanism as a more accurate and responsive way to tailor your day-to-day eating. Then you can throw calorie-counting out of the window.

In fact, by settling on a figure (say 1500 kcals per day) we are almost precluding the ability of the body to self-regulate intakes because if we have a target in mind and we do not feel that hungry on any particular day we may decide to eat up to that target anyway because we feel we are already limiting our intake. If we feel hungrier on other days we would definitely resist the urge to eat beyond our target. Yet if we actually did ignore the target figure, then there is a good chance we would only eat extra food to make up for the amount we didn't eat on the days we didn't feel that hungry. It is the same thing with having set meal times/frequency and bowing to social pressure to eat because we feel it would be impolite to decline! I wonder whether we don't really lose the ability to regulate food intake by hunger/satiety but deliberately ignore it so often we eventually begin to lose the ability to recognise it even when it is still present.

With regards to macronutrients it is a fact that we do not require dietary carbohydrates at all - nil, zilch, nada. If you start from that premise, then it becomes a question of how many you want to add to your diet and for what reason and in what form. I don't think staying out of ketosis is a valid reason (and is not even possible, as most people will experience some degree of ketosis at some stage).

Most low carb diets prescribe an initial 2-week period on ultra-low daily carbs (any where from sub 60g to sub 20g), then they advise gradually increasing them until you reach a threshold where you avoid fat gain (if fat loss is your primary goal). But given what I said at the outset, this seems back-to-front. If you want to experiment with carbs (and you already have via your previous diets) I would say work it the other way. Start off with whatever levels you are currently eating (or would normally eat) and gradually reduce it. I would say refined sugars and flours would be the first to go, followed by any grains in general. This will leave most of your carbs coming from fruits and veg. Then, if you do not feel any negative effects from reducing carbs, consider trimming even these back to those with the lowest carb content.

Protein can be held pretty constant and, if you are not interested in packing on pounds of muscle and training multiple times a week, you do not need that much. Even a gram per pound may be on the generous side but is a good place to start. So that leaves just dietary fat. You have to make the leap of faith that increasing fats to replace any carbs you cut is not going to be a health disaster (and there is plenty of data out there to show that it is not - definitely steer clear of seed oils/margarines/low fat spreads though!).

The important thing, with any diet, is to make sure you avoid heavily processed stuff; if you keep to natural whole foods you can't go too far wrong.

[Gareth83]

I'm not going to get into too much detail here because there's lots o finfo already on the subject, you just need to read around a bit more.

First off I'd say your activity levels suck. Pressups, pullups, sit ups will not do much for you in terms of building mass or losing fat, you need to go and join a proper gym which has a squat rack, deadlift area, dipping rack, chinning rack etc. These are the main lifts that will separate the bicep boys from those who are actually big and strong.

Personally I like this summary:

Quote

Diet

Approximately 75% of people are carb intolerant and should not be eating grains; the grains are getting people fat. The first step is to get the Omega 3’s in balance by taking hi-quality fish oils. You must eat protein with every meal even breakfast. A meat and nut breakfast will make you leaner even if you do not change the rest of your diet. It is best if you rotate the meat each breakfast. Eat 6-7 meals per day with protein plus smart fats in every meal.

A long-term low carbohydrate diet is the solution for fat people even after they have lost the fat. To begin the diet, eat only meat, fish, eggs, cheese and vegetables (50g of carbs per day or less). Follow this diet for 14 days then have a cheat day, eat whatever you want for the entire day. Return to the ultra low carb diet and have a cheat meal (one sitting) every 4th or 5th day.

1. Once you are starting to lean out you can add berries to the diet. They are strong antioxidants and low glycemic.

2. As you get leaner still you can introduce the Orange family of fruits.

3. As you get leaner again you can add Plums, nectarines, peaches and apples.

4. Then grapes and bananas

5. Then the root vegetables such as yams, and sweet potatoes

6. Then rice, the darker the better

7. The last food to add is grains, and it should never be added for those that are carb intolerant. (If eating carbs made you fat)

A no or low gluten diet is a good thing, it interferes with reaction time.

Stick with this diet 80% of the time and you will do fine and not stressed out by it. Eat more vegetables.

Do not eat Peanut Butter, even the natural kind; it contains a mould that has phyto-estrogens in it.

Fructose syrup is the most fattening food we know of and it ages you; avoid it at all costs.

Have your cheat meal late in the day instead of early when you are likely to keep eating bad the rest of the day. The best cheat meals have some nutritional value

Fatty foods have a reputation for causing bad health but it is Carbs that raise cholesterol and bad blood lipids

Although some points may be questionable it is a good general guideline that the leaner you are the more carbs you can tolerate.

[Tauren]

Hmm.

Partly I think you should go with more calories. 1500 is still feck all, and is still in serious deficit territory. I would be more tempted to do 12 cals/lb BW, not LBM, try that for two weeks, and adjust if its not working.

Partly I think its a shame you got talked out of doing RFL. Not that RFL is perfect, and not that RFL doesn't have drawbacks, but it was working for you. Equally if you want to have something of a life again, I don't blame you for ditching it.

Partly I think you really should hit the gym seriously. It would only need an hour 3 times a week. And with the miracle of newbie gains you could add some muscle mass, and drop some fat. If you don't put some muscle on you are going to end up dieting down to 10st to get to the BF range you want.

Edit: Aarrggh, its the comedy Polinquin seminar again.

[ATZ]

Gareth, the above advice form Loloquin is horrible and you know it.

JJB - If you've been dieting long term, take a break, up your cals and start training properly for 6-8 weeks MINIMUM. This should go someway to restoring hormones and getting your metabolism back up to speed, you may actually build some muscle. Then you could look at a more moderate appraoch once you start developing some good habits. Aims for your macronutrients to be a 40/30/30 split of Protein, Carbs and Fat and get your O3's in.

[daviss]

last year i lost 86 lbs (from april 26 to december).
i have tried most diets. i tried the diet plan (neil mcteggart), Anabolic diet and i am now trying Rapid Fat Loss.
since january (this year) i have done a bulk and not been on a diet (as such) and i have gained about 17 lbs in total (nothing too much to worry about in my eyes, but ive reached my limit now).
if i am honest in my comparison of all the diets ive been on, the diet plan by neil mcteggart's method was the one that worked for me.

what works for one person to another is never the same though.

i felt on neil mcteggarts 'diet plan' i had more than enough energy to complete workouts and maintained constant and steady weight loss.
RFL is a great idea to kick off a more moderate diet (like lyle suggests, and what i am planning to do) but in the long term AD and RFL are not the way to go to achieve the best results.
I feel i preserved and gained more LBM on a more moderate diet (neil mct's) and that although they state to preserve LBM, RLF and AD are actually counterproductive.
i felt so weak after finishing AD, i lost stregnth and mass! and i feel follwed the AD guidelines very well.

the best thing i ever did was to buy some cheap weights from argos and an exercise bike. i dont have much room and have to pack my weights up every time i use them but i get just a good workout as i would in the gym. myself, i do mainly compound moves and add cardio onto the end of my weights workouts (all of the workouts i did could easily be done with dumbells).
when i lost the bulk of my weight last year my diet was built around the protein (steak, chicken, turkey, tuna, salmon, whey, milk protein, milk, eggs) i added carbs (mainly sweet potaoes and brocolli) on workout days, and i would eat some nuts now and then and added healthy fats and vitamins.
i cycled my calories and carbs to suit my workouts and to keep my body guessing and never usually ate the same thing twice in one day, or the same meals two days in a row.


in summary, i feel a balanced diet and adding some mass worked best for me.

[Fred]

Proper resistance training will do a lot more than just changing your diet. It needs to be a combination of both to get the results in a reasonable time frame.

If you don't want to do ar loaded squats, deadlifts etc. at least do the bodyweight versions. Challenge yourself, push yourself hard and you'll see faster results.

[Gareth83]

Quote

Edit: Aarrggh, its the comedy Polinquin seminar again.

Comedy? What's so comical about it? Go and constructively criticise the points 'you' believe are wrong or flawed rather than just shun it. I'd rather listen to points from olympic coach Poliquin's fat loss seminar rather than a keyboard trainer or dietician!

Quote

Gareth, the above advice form Loloquin is horrible and you know it.

No I don't otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time posting it. What is wrong with the following as a good overall summary then? Even though I said in my post some points 'are' questionable I feel it is good general advice is it not?

Quote

Diet

Approximately 75% of people are carb intolerant and should not be eating grains; the grains are getting people fat. The first step is to get the Omega 3’s in balance by taking hi-quality fish oils. You must eat protein with every meal even breakfast. A meat and nut breakfast will make you leaner even if you do not change the rest of your diet. It is best if you rotate the meat each breakfast. Eat 6-7 meals per day with protein plus smart fats in every meal.

Grains are bad and you know it, unless they are properly prepared they cause a number of health problems as well documented.

Omega 3's - would you disagree with this? The reason most people's omega 3 balance is out of sync is partly due to the rancid vegetable oils we heavily consume.

I do believe protein should be ate at every meal for a number of reasons

I don't believe a meat and nut breakfast will have any benefit over another decent breakfast, although I do see how this would keep one fuller for longer.

I don't agree with 6-7 meals a day but daily intake as a whole

A long-term low carbohydrate diet is the solution for fat people even after they have lost the fat. To begin the diet, eat only meat, fish, eggs, cheese and vegetables (50g of carbs per day or less). Follow this diet for 14 days then have a cheat day, eat whatever you want for the entire day. Return to the ultra low carb diet and have a cheat meal (one sitting) every 4th or 5th day.

1. Once you are starting to lean out you can add berries to the diet. They are strong antioxidants and low glycemic.

2. As you get leaner still you can introduce the Orange family of fruits.

3. As you get leaner again you can add Plums, nectarines, peaches and apples.

4. Then grapes and bananas

5. Then the root vegetables such as yams, and sweet potatoes

6. Then rice, the darker the better

7. The last food to add is grains, and it should never be added for those that are carb intolerant. (If eating carbs made you fat)

Again, what is wrong with the above? I am yet to see a fat person on here post with pictures how they got ripped on a high carb diet. Fat people cannot handle carbs, even Lyle is due to post an article on this I believe?

A no or low gluten diet is a good thing, it interferes with reaction time.

Is that wrong? Show me any reason why gluten is any good in the diet?

Stick with this diet 80% of the time and you will do fine and not stressed out by it. Eat more vegetables.

80% is a pretty fair compromise, we can't all be super strict or adherence would be too hard. Eat more vegetables has got to be a good thing right surely you'd agree?

Do not eat Peanut Butter, even the natural kind; it contains a mould that has phyto-estrogens in it.

Later evidence has proved otherwise, although at the time pretty much all the well respected experts would have agreed on this.

Fructose syrup is the most fattening food we know of and it ages you; avoid it at all costs.

Any benefit to fructose syrup in one's diet?

Have your cheat meal late in the day instead of early when you are likely to keep eating bad the rest of the day. The best cheat meals have some nutritional value

This is a valid point and I have personally experienced this. If you cheat in the morning you to tend to cheat all day I find.

Fatty foods have a reputation for causing bad health but it is Carbs that raise cholesterol and bad blood lipids

This is true, the dogma associated with fats including saturated fats has more or less been proven wrong in virtually every reasonable fitness and health circle has it not?

So what is really so 'lol' about these notes as a general summary to fat loss?? Certainly better than just 'eat less calories' as the OP has already tried!

Quote

Proper resistance training will do a lot more than just changing your diet. It needs to be a combination of both to get the results in a reasonable time frame.

Agreed

[Tauren]

Its a truly awful article, the few good points it makes it obscures with meaningless, almost random advice. Also for someone who is very quick to accuse people of reposting the opinion of others, its rather hilarious that I must have seen you post it about 4 times.

A large part of the article is an almost random grouping of fruits. I know berries are good for you, but seriously why are peaches worse for you than oranges, but better than grapes?

A few random pronouncements:

"Meat and nut breakfast" - will make anyone leaner, seriously?
Fructose syrup is to be "avoid at all costs", but the fructose in fruit is fine then?
Gluten slows reaction time - damn just think how quick Usain Bolt would be if he stayed away from the chicken nuggets

Also:

Quote

Again, what is wrong with the above? I am yet to see a fat person on here post with pictures how they got ripped on a high carb diet. Fat people cannot handle carbs, even Lyle is due to post an article on this I believe?

You are actually improving the original article here. Its not advocating higher carbs as you get leaner, it makes clear in the first sentence, he is advocating low carbs for life. Adding in some extra fruit won't really have a huge effect on carb intake.

There is some good advice there, but its obscured with so many random, senile statements its as likely to confuse as help anyone.




Just to be clear, I am not saying this just because you are advocating a "paleo" way of doing things. My problem is simply thats its horrible, confusing and bad advice for a beginner. If you want to give someone your way of doing things, I would have a lot more respect if you just chucked them a link to Mark's Daily Apple.