Paleolithic diet

[Seebsy]

I have more questions , if someone could help me please ?

1) Why do I assume that a lot of meat might cause bowel cancer ? I must of heard it somewhere in my past . Something must cause bowel cancer and I can't help thinking tough meats would be a bigger cause than grains .

2) Why are "whole grains" sold to us as "heart healthy" ? Is there something in them that can help heart health more so than meats and fats ?, or is just a better bet than scoffing white flour ?

3) Think i asked NU this before , so apologies if I have . If I were to take up a paleo style diet , what do you think might happen to my endurance running and racing ? For sake of argument say I can run 7 minute miles for 10 miles and burn 800Kcal @ average 150bpm according to the monitor , what do you think the results would be on next to zero carbs ? Would there be any other effects when I upped the intensity to 165-170bpm for a race ? I currently eat 60g CHO at breakfast and then roughly 160g CHO wrapped tightly around PM training .

4) The main reason I do CHO is the feeling of energy during training / to try and treat my depression / and to spike insulin for anti-cortisol purposes . Would I suffer from muscle catabolism ?

5) Finally , (thank God I hear you say!!) , if I were to follow the Stronglifts geezas advice and scoff carbs at the weekend , would this undo any paleo diet health improvements ? Or worse , cause disease due to mucking about with blood lipid profiles and sugar levels ?

Phew............

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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I have more questions , if someone could help me please ?

1) Why do I assume that a lot of meat might cause bowel cancer ? I must of heard it somewhere in my past . Something must cause bowel cancer and I can't help thinking tough meats would be a bigger cause than grains .

Because it is an oft-repeated myth with very little scientific backing. Most studies torture the meagre data to death in order to come up with a positive correlation, often predetermined by bias going into the study!

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2) Why are "whole grains" sold to us as "heart healthy" ? Is there something in them that can help heart health more so than meats and fats ?, or is just a better bet than scoffing white flour ?

Because refined sugar and starch is awful for health (and very few experts, even the lipidphobes, would deny it!) and, because none of these lipidphobes want to back-track on their dogmatic belief regarding animal fats, they have to use the compromise position of recommending whole grains. But as ATZ has recentky shown distinctions between complex and simple or high GI and low GI carbs are pretty meaningless when it comes to their effects on blood glucose and insulin. The other reason is the fibre myth - fibre is neither healthy or necessary for bowel function.

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3) Think i asked NU this before , so apologies if I have . If I were to take up a paleo style diet , what do you think might happen to my endurance running and racing ? For sake of argument say I can run 7 minute miles for 10 miles and burn 800Kcal @ average 150bpm according to the monitor , what do you think the results would be on next to zero carbs ? Would there be any other effects when I upped the intensity to 165-170bpm for a race ? I currently eat 60g CHO at breakfast and then roughly 160g CHO wrapped tightly around PM training .

Check out Charles Washington at his blog Zeroing In On Health. He eats a high fat, zero carb diet and runs marathons as well as weight training. Obviously there will have to be a period of adaptation to the new diet.

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4) The main reason I do CHO is the feeling of energy during training / to try and treat my depression / and to spike insulin for anti-cortisol purposes . Would I suffer from muscle catabolism ?

No (muscle catabolism that is, other than what everyone experiences during the day).

Cortisol is only released during intense/prolonged exercise as a means of liberating energy stores to top up falling blood glucose. Insulin doesn't counteract the cortisol release but rather the carbs you ingest, to spike the insulin, increases the blood sugar, which means cortisol release is redundant.

Depression could be a side effect of reactive hypoglycemia caused by eating high GI carbs to spike insulin!

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5) Finally , (thank God I hear you say!!) , if I were to follow the Stronglifts geezas advice and scoff carbs at the weekend , would this undo any paleo diet health improvements ? Or worse , cause disease due to mucking about with blood lipid profiles and sugar levels ?

Phew............

Possibly - probably. If going for a low carb (or zero carb) approach, why keep changing horses mid-stream anyway?

[Seebsy]

I'm still not fully clear on whether the presence of cortisol should be reduced by insulin spiking . Could someone on a paleo diet eat fruit during and after excercise to combat cortisol ? More to the point is Cortisol as destructive and swine flu inviting as the "experts" make out ?

Also , check out this exerpt from netdoctor.co.uk , Written by Prof. Jonathan Rhodes, consultant gastroenterologist .

It is one of the better statements I have read , though still worryingly anti-red meat . All the standard Cancer research bodies simply say to stay away from meats and eat veggies , which is plain crap . No mention of carbs !!

" Dietary factors
Dietary factors that increase bowel cancer risk are not yet clearly defined. Populations with a high-fibre intake tend to have a low risk of bowel cancer. However, the results of studies in which people, usually those who have already developed polyps, have been given high-fibre diets are disappointing.

It now seems as though the beneficial effect of fibre is not simply due to its mechanical effect on helping the bowel to regularly pass faeces.

Evidence suggests that vegetable fibre is more protective that cereal fibre. Recent studies have also shown that specific chemicals in vegetables, for example the isothiocyanates, which give brassicas (cabbage, broccoli, brussel sprouts, cauliflower) their characteristic pungent taste, might be especially protective against cancer. A high intake of calories and obesity are both risk factors for bowel cancer, and a high intake of red meat is also linked with increased risk.

The best available approaches for a low risk of developing bowel cancer are:

a diet high in green vegetables, particularly cabbage, broccoli, brussel sprouts or cauliflower.
a diet low in red meat. In particular, avoid burnt meat, which contains cancer-promoting chemicals called cyclic amines.
keeping to a normal body weight and taking regular exercise.
Although still controversial, it seems that taking aspirin (eg Disprin) regularly (300mg per day or more ie one standard tablet) reduces the risk by about 50 per cent. However, prolonged use of aspirin carries a risk of intestinal ulceration and bleeding, so whether the benefits would outweigh the risks is unclear at present. "

[NU_nutrition_TS]

No offence but I grow tired of all this 'to-ing and fro-ing/ re expert opinion. Pick an authority you have faith in, follow their recommendation and the best of luck to you!

[Seebsy]

I think you completely misunderstood my last post , I was merely pointing to a better "red meat won't kill you" link . I was in no way condoning it but asking your opinion !!

Which authority do you recommend then ? There is so much info out there with good arguments in all directions that you can't blame me for being confused .

is it me or does everyone get a bit arsey late at night on this forum ??

[NU_nutrition_TS]

It's just we seem to hash these issues out thread after thread, week after week and people are still undecided or unconvinced. At the end of the day - like religion - it's all down to belief and faith. Who's opinion do you have faith in? The mainstream expert? The aternative maverick? Me or someone else on here? Yourself? What data or evidence do believe is factual? Pick one and stick with it.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

Just as a further illustration of what I am talking about above (and to show that the annoyance I feel is shared by others):

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The Vegetarian Menace

One for the Pea-Brain Diet

Got an email from reader Katherine Strange, proprietor of SF Bay Area's Evolution Catering. I haven't tried the menu, yet, but that's only because I have the time and inclination to cook for myself most of the time. If that's a problem for you, or an occasional problem, you're near to San Francisco and want to eat right, ring up Kat and get some nice food.

A vegetarian wasn't too happy about the menu offerings.

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Kat, It would be interesting if you included some pure vegetarian meals (beans, grains and veggies) if you really want to be an “Evolutionary” caterer. Research shows that only a vegetarian diet is really sustainable for the planet, and is still the healthiest way to eat that there is. I ‘d be interested if you decide to continue to evolve....

Then, a kind reply got an even more insistent response.

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...And their organs only needed to survive for 20-30 years. Life span extended with the evolution of agriculture, as did the need for the kidneys and heart to last longer. High protein diets are very hard on the kidneys, causing high rates of kidney stones, which can lead to kidney failure. Not to mention the fat and cholesterol issues.

And then there is the health of the planet to think about. The carbon footprint of a pound of beef is huge compared to a pound of grain.

So my question to you is, how do you see our planet and people evolving to feed the huge amounts of people that populate the earth and will populate it in the next 20 years?

I love that you are making food for families. But your claim to Evolution, I believe, is flawed. We have evolved away from the hunter to the urban dweller and billions of people on the earth. Our diet needs have evolved and need to continue to do so to make it all sustainable.

It is truly tiresome to keep dealing with the same myths, ignorance, and lies. How many times have you heard the "impacted red meat" mantra? I still see it all the time from the vegetarian menace.

Next, you have ignoramuses claiming we evolved as herbivores, ignoring reams and reams of anthropological evidence proving that not only did our ancestors eat a lot of meat, but in cases such as the Neanderthal, were very nearly totally carnivorous. Instead, you get moron liars-for-a-cause, like Kathy Freston: Shattering The Meat Myth: Humans Are Natural Vegetarians. Get a load of this idiocy from that article, and the quote by Richard Leakey, of all people:

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There is no more authoritative source on anthropological issues than paleontologist Dr. Richard Leakey, who explains what anyone who has taken an introductory physiology course might have discerned intuitively--that humans are herbivores. Leakey notes that "[y]ou can't tear flesh by hand, you can't tear hide by hand.... We wouldn't have been able to deal with food source that required those large canines" (although we have teeth that are called "canines," they bear little resemblance to the canines of carnivores).

In fact, our hands are perfect for grabbing and picking fruits and vegetables. Similarly, like the intestines of other herbivores, ours are very long (carnivores have short intestines so they can quickly get rid of all that rotting flesh they eat). We don't have sharp claws to seize and hold down prey. And most of us (hopefully) lack the instinct that would drive us to chase and then kill animals and devour their raw carcasses.

Really, I am very hard pressed to recall anything I've recently read that's so ignorant, fanciful and wishful. Leakey: if you really said that then you, as a scientist, should be ashamed of yourself. Surely you know that our ancestors have been using tools on the order of 2.5 milion years.

Moreover, vegetarianism itself is largely myth, by which I mean that there are few, if any, true vegetarian mammals in nature. They eat bugs, worms, spiders. And even chimps are known to masterfully hunt down small monkeys, rip 'em apart, and eat them.

See, this is what happens -- you veg-morons -- when you cloister youselves in your little echo chambers. I have yet to show this to a vegetarian who wasn't dumbfounded. But what should I expect, when these are the very same people who will look at a carton of eggs and feel joy that it reads: "100% vegetarian diet." That means it's a 100% unnatural diet. Free ranging chickens, just like all birds, eat bugs & worms. ...Lot's of them, and the difference in nutrition of the yolk can be on the order of 300% or more, and it's directly a function of the non-pea-brained diet...

And then there's the enviro-crap, which is just original-sin religion in disguise. You're a guilty sinner (destroying the planet), you must repent (eat unfulfilling food). and atone (sacrifice your values and desires to the diktats of "authorities"). Same con, different day.

Now, The American Dietetic Association gives the green light for vegan diets for infants, and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) -- a vegan/vegetarian activist group like CSPI (Center for Science in the Public Interest) that's too dishonest and manipulative to imply their true agenda in their own name -- are recommending same.

I have one nagging little juxtaposition: plug both "meat-eater baby deaths" and "vegan baby deaths" into Google, browse the links that come up, and come to some sense about the matter.

Free the Animal: The Vegetarian Menace

However, when he says 'no mammal is truly vegetarian' I think he may have meant no primate is truly vegetarian. But then again, even a cow must munch through a fair number of insects clinging to all that grass they eat!

[Was_once_fat_dave]

Nu, thats an awesome post. I laughed my whole way through it.

Especially this bit

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[y]ou can't tear flesh by hand,

Of course you can, I've personally ripped the flesh from a chicken that was a live 10 minutes earlier.

And I wonder how sharp our canines once where, Ive got rotten teeth from a mixture of teenage neglect and genetics (i think). The only teeth I to this day have never had problems with is my canines.

[Seebsy]

Interesting post , much of which I agree with and always have had . Though bares little relevance to my original questions...................

Also , does a low-carb diet cause extreme defensiveness ?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Also , does a low-carb diet cause extreme defensiveness ?

It increases patience - but every tether has it's end!

Incidentally I answered all of your questions point by point. Your last post - which exasperated me - was merely a contrary view from some expert. Like I said, if you have more faith in a mainstream expert opinion, then no amount of logical argument or presentation of opposing data/evidence from me is going to sway you, so I would rather not waste my time. That is not being defensive or rude, it is being eminently pragmatic and knowing my limitations!