Paleolithic diet

[Resurrected]

A statistical fudge?

But Nu you DO NOT understand statistics you have already admitted to that!

I'm sorry but whilst I can agree with some of your views, the view that life expectancy has not increased is beyond believe and wrong I am afraid.

Although I am sure you will be able to go away and delve on the internet and find some statistics to prove your assertion!

[Ollie]

That's the beauty of statistics. More often that not they can be manipulated and used to support either side of any outcome.

I know infant mortality rates ARE lower, but life expectancy has decreased and IMR is not factored into it. It wouldn't make any sense!

[Resurrected]

I vaquely remember (its a long time ago!) that when I studied economics, the lecturer using a statistic that proved that more conflicts take place in the world when worldwide banana growth drops below a certain level.

It was something like that anyway!

[hailtotheking]

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And a fine point it is One other thing: is the paleo diet the most efficient or adequate for bodybuilders or athlets that require fast ATP generation/conversion and that do mainly anaerobic exercise rather aerobic exercise? Well, I think not, (if anywone has some info on this matter, please share) but I also agree that bobybuilder's diet should have more saturated fats than the usual.

Yes, this is something that has crossed my mind. Power and strength athletes may not fare as well on this type of diet as the recommended high carb diets (for such types of athletes). For high power output (i.e generation of force very quickly), optimal ATP and muscle glycogen are critical. On my sports science degree i saw many studies correlating this, and also some studies with low carb diets, and 'fat loading' before training, and neither of these latter aprroaches fared well in terms of power output. However, there is no "one size fits all" approach to dieting - some guys respond very well to high carb diets, wheras others (like me) just seem to get fat on such diets, and do better with lower carb and higher fat + protein intake. Admittedly my performance in the gym was marginally better on a higher carb diet, but i turned into a lardass on it, and my guts hurt with all that pasta + bread, and my blood sugar was all over the place when i wasnt in the gym.

Going back to the concept of paleo diets being based upon 'what our ancestors ate', it seems you'd have to have a "European Paleo Diet" for europeans, a Chinese Paleo Diet for Chinese, an African Paleo Diet for Africans, etc. Those paleo diet book writers could make an absolute packet writing paleo diet books for different continental regions!

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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A statistical fudge?

But Nu you DO NOT understand statistics you have already admitted to that!

I'm sorry but whilst I can agree with some of your views, the view that life expectancy has not increased is beyond believe and wrong I am afraid.

Although I am sure you will be able to go away and delve on the internet and find some statistics to prove your assertion!

I know I don't understand the finer points of statistics as a trained statistician would, but I hope I've picked up enough of the basics to realise that you can prove anything - including extreme opposites - if you manipulate the statistical data in a certain way. In my book, if statistics don't consistantly reflect real life/real world observation they are not worth a damn!

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Life expectancy for both men and women has continued to rise. In 2002, life expectancy at birth for females born in the UK was 81 years, compared with 76 years for males.

Source: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=881

Let's take the above as an example. First impressions are that it's not that much older than the biblical "three-score years and ten"! Even Methuselah and other biblical patriarchs lived longer - OK, I don't really believe the bible is the literal truth!

But, for the sake of argument, let's just say that individuals lived as long if not longer during the 1800's [Queen Victoria, for example, died at the age of 82 in 1901 while her husband died at the age of 42!]. In simple, and most accurate terms, when you work out an average life expectancy or average anything [more accurately a mean in mathematics] you take a set of figures and add them all together then divide by the total number of figures in that set to find the mean. So if you have a set of figures for age at death and there was a high infant mortality rate you can expect to have more ages below say 5 years of age in that set than you would if there was a low infant mortality rate. If we assume [my argument that there were people that lived as long as some people do now, as per Queen Victoria] that the upper age range at death peaked, at 82 then you would get a range of ages from <5 to >81 and when you add them all up and divide by the total the lower ages would drag the mean down. In the case of a set of figures where the infant mortality rate was low you would have fewer figures below age five, so the mean would reflect that by being nearer the top end of age ranges. Of course statisticians will tell you they have adjusted for that, but unless you see the raw data for yourself, how do you know if that has been done in any meaningful way?

Just as a simple illustration:

First set [more lows]: 3+2+4+5+1+79+67+80+50+82=373/10=37.3
Second set [fewer lows]: 4+5+38+45+57+79+67+80+50+82=507/10=50.7

Of course you could adjust the first set like this: 3+2+4+5+1=15/5=3+79+67+80+50+82=361/6=60.2

Or what about:
(3+2+4+5+1=15/5)=3+(79+67+80+50+82=358/5)=71.6=74.6

See how easy it is to manipulate the same data set and get totally different answers? To me, it's no good saying that statistically life expectancy is higher unless I can see how those figures were arrived at and what the ranges were! It may be true to say there are more people who reach the age of 80-90 than there were 50 or 60 years ago, but not that people are necessarily living to a greater age now than they were at a particular time in the past. Most centenarians alive today lived the bulk of their formative years before the so-called miracle of modern drugs! Also, how many at this greater age are enjoying good health, independance and mobility and how many are hobbling around on zimmer frames, taking umpteen different prescription drugs a day, having regular kidney dialysis, in constant pain or drooling in some nursing home somewhere devoid of their marbles?

[Ripped Barbarian]

I've taken onboard the fact that different ancestors had different diets that their bodies had adapted ot over a long time, the same goes for all diets however and is an obvious factor to take into account.
It should be pointed out that no ancestor, anywhere in the world ate stacks of complex carbs with very small amounts of fat and protein, like we are led to believe we should now, even humans from tropical areas with plenty of fruit (carbs) ate a lot of meat (monkeys, boar, birds e.t.c)

The main point with a paleolithic diet is eating unprocessed, raw food that is available from nature, avoiding the food which must seem alien to our bodies that is consumed today.

I have always believed you should base your diet on how your body functions after you have eaten it, if you have mild stomach problems after drinking milk, even if you like the taste of it....don't drink it!

My body seems to work very efficiently on higher fat and protein, especially fish and lesser carbs, obviously my european ancestors adapted to eating lots of meat and fish.
It can be a complex method however, due to genetics, you end up eating a "paleo" diet that no one ate, but a combination of your heritage.

My ancestors certainly were not eating a huge plate of wheat pasta.
I cannot lose weight if i am eating lots of carbs, even if i'm well under 2k cals and doing lots of physical work, on high protein high fat my body is always very warm, i feel full of energy and my weight has started going down again whilst muscle mass is going up.

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Going back to the concept of paleo diets being based upon 'what our ancestors ate', it seems you'd have to have a "European Paleo Diet" for europeans, a Chinese Paleo Diet for Chinese, an African Paleo Diet for Africans, etc. Those paleo diet book writers could make an absolute packet writing paleo diet books for different continental regions!

Ye Gods! You scientifically trained types do like to make a Rubik's cube out of a die don't you?!

OK. I'll have a go at writing such a tome. Here goes...

A Global Paleolithic Dietary Survival Guide
NU_nutrition_TS, et al [actually no al just me]

CHAPTER ONE

Where ever you happen to be in the developed world, dear reader, I want you to imagine the following scenario:

Overnight, due to some inexplicable cause and for an unfathomable reason, all the fast food outlets, grocery stores, 24 service stations, supermarkets, hypermarkets, malls, corner shops, farm shops, markets and street vendors have disappeared without a trace!

When you have got that scenario firmly in your mind, proceed to chapter two.

CHAPTER TWO

It's been three days since the inexplicable disappearance of all the convenience food outlets and you are hungry...the larder has been raided, the refridgerator and freezer are empty and the cupboards are bare. What do you do? I know, arm yourself with a knife, a club and a sack and go out into the wilderness, where ever you are, and see what you can find to eat!

The End

Can I have my royalties paid in cash please?

[NU_nutrition_TS]

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Yes, this is something that has crossed my mind. Power and strength athletes may not fare as well on this type of diet as the recommended high carb diets (for such types of athletes). For high power output (i.e generation of force very quickly), optimal ATP and muscle glycogen are critical.

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A single fat molecule can produce a whopping 129 molecules of ATP
A single carbohydrate molecule produces a paltry 38 molecules of ATP! Do the math.

Author: Shane Ellison, M.Sc.
Date: 04/12/06
Shane holds a Master's degree in organic chemistry.

[Tartulho]

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[FONT=Arial]
A single fat molecule can produce a whopping 129 molecules of ATP

A single carbohydrate molecule produces a paltry 38 molecules of ATP! Do the math.

Author: Shane Ellison, M.Sc.
Date: 04/12/06
[FONT=Arial]Shane holds a Master's degree in organic chemistry.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

And how long does our body takes to turn a fat molecule into 129 molecules of ATP and a carb molecule into 38 ATP molecules? That's the real issue with anaerobic exercise/strengh atletes (and body builders).

[Tartulho]

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i dnt see how atp conversion shouldcome into it, the most efficent system for atp regeneration is the aerobic system, the only system that uses fat for fuels, seems to work ok for me

Indeed, true. But if you do mostly anaerobic exercise (like strenght training), a low carb diet may not be the best for you. When I practiced kayak I ate a lot of fats and I was really fine with that diet (when you have to paddle 2+ hours straight, fats are the way to go ).