War to End All Warz

[ATZ]

But the bro's on BB.com said it works Tomskii!!!

I love the fact that pub med only throws up 6 whole studies on CEE, yet Mono runs into the hundreds. Obviously because supp companies tell you it's better it has to be!

[ATZ]

So:

Creatine Mono = Supp backed with evidence base

Creatine Ethyl Ester = No direct evidence it actually works

Then you have this:

Quote

Creatine ethyl ester rapidly degrades to creatinine in stomach acid

Child R and Tallon MJ

Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, DrChild@CR-Technologies.net

Creatine ethyl ester (CEE) is a commercially available synthetic creatine that is now widely used in dietary supplements. It comprises of creatine with an ethyl group attached and this molecular configuration is reported to provide several advantages over creatine monohydrate (CM). The Medical Research Institute (CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product (CE2) provides greater solubility in lipids, leading to improved absorption. Similarly San (San Corporation, CA, USA) claim that the CEE in their product avoids the breakdown of creatine to creatinine in stomach acids. Ultimately it is claimed that CEE products provide greater absorption and efficacy than CM. To date, none of these claims have been evaluated by an independent, or university laboratory and no comparative data are available on CEE and CM.

This study assessed the availability of creatine from three commercial creatine products during degradation in acidic conditions similar to those that occur in the stomach. They comprised of two products containing CEE and commercially available CM (Creapure™). An independent laboratory, using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP), performed the analysis. Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37º +/- 1ºC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV).

After 30 minutes incubation only 73% of the initial CEE present was available from CE2, while the amount of CEE available from San CM2 Alpha was even lower at only 62%. In contrast, more than 99% of the creatine remained available from the CM product. These reductions in CEE availability were accompanied by substantial creatinine formation, without the appearance of free creatine. After 120 minutes incubation 72% of the CEE was available from CE2 with only 11% available from CM2 Alpha, while more than 99% of the creatine remained available from CM.

CEE is claimed to provide several advantages over CM because of increased solubility and stability. In practice, the addition of the ethyl group to creatine actually reduces acid stability and accelerates its breakdown to creatinine. This substantially reduces creatine availability in its esterified form and as a consequence products containing CEE are inferior to CM as a source of free creatine.

Then we move onto Kre-Alkalyn:

Quote

Kre-alkalyn® supplementation has no beneficial effect on creatine-to-creatinine conversion rates.

Tallon MJ and Child R

University of Northumbria, Sport Sciences, Northumbria University, Northumberland Building, Newcastle upon Tyne, United Kingdom, Department of Life Sciences, Kingston University, Penrhyn Rd, Kingston-upon-Thames, United Kingdom. DrTallon@CR-Technologies.net

All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp. (Billings, MT, USA) claim that Kre-alkalyn® (KA) a "Buffered" creatine, is 100% stable in stomach acid and does not convert to creatinine. In contrast, they also claim that creatine monohydrate (CM) is highly pH labile with more than 90% of the creatine converting to the degradation product creatinine in stomach acids. To date, no independent or university laboratory has evaluated the stability of KA in stomach acids, assessed its possible conversion to creatinine, or made direct comparisons of acid stability with CM.

This study examined whether KA supplementation reduced the rate of creatine conversion to creatinine, relative to commercially available CM (Creapure™). Creatine products were analyzed by an independent commercial laboratory using testing guidelines recommended by the United States Pharmacopeia (USP). Each product was incubated in 900ml of pH 1 HCL at 37º +/- 1ºC and samples where drawn at 5, 30 and 120 minutes and immediately analyzed by HPLC (UV) for creatine and creatinine.

In contrast to the claims of All American Pharmaceutical and Natural Foods Corp., the rate of creatinine formation from CM was found to be less than 1% of the initial dose, demonstrating that CM is extremely stable under acidic conditions that replicate those of the stomach. This study also showed that KA supplementation actually resulted in 35% greater conversion of creatine to creatinine than CM. In conclusion the conversion of creatine to creatinine is not a limitation in the delivery of creatine from CM and KA is less stable than CM in the acid conditions of the stomach.

Creapure is cheap, and there is direct evidence to show it WORKS. So why bother spending cash on other fancy creatines where there's evidence to show they're less efficient????

Some people are non responders full stop, but I'd rather back the tried and tested stuff rather than the crap some supp company are trying to sell you.

End of war.

[Tomskiii]

Yup thats pretty much it, companies would like you to believe that CEE is edgy and untested with a bunch of anecdotal evidence to tell you its better than mono. But its not.

Interesting that you mention non-responders, i do wonder if i am one, although i've been taking it so long now that i'd struggle to know what i was like without it

[Iconic]

In principle, the esterification of creatine should increase its bioavailability by making it more lipophilic.
Problem is that it is broken down within about 10 mins of entering the blood stream to creatine & ethanol. Add to this the fact that people take less CEE than Mono and suddenly less creatine actually gets to the muscle.
I bought CEE when it first hit MP because i was convinced that it would be better, especially as it seemed like a strong scientific argument.
However i never got the same fullness & pumps i did from Mono.

[Weaves]

Kre alkalyn

[*Ryan*]

Im going to give this (creatine mono) another go as few years ago, it seem to do the trick.

Can anyone clue me up tho, does this stuff actually make you look leaner or bigger?

Also I remember feeling bloated while taking it ha ha, any idea what I could be doing wrong?